In an article in the St. Lewis Riverfront Times called Pray the Gay Away by Chad Garrison, Jim Venice expounds about his ex-gay counseling for Pure Heart Ministry.
Much of Venice’s message is the familiar one about how gay people don’t truly identify with their own gender. As a rather bizarre example, Venice says:
“At age five or six, a boy will tell himself, ‘My pee-pee is not like her pee-pee, and my pee-pee is like Daddy’s pee-pee, so I must be like Daddy,” Venice explains. “At this time boys start learning from Dad what it means to be a man, how to be masculine and do boy things like play in the dirt, roughhouse and catch frogs, et cetera.
“For girls it’s the opposite,” Venice continues. “They’re filling their bowl with femininity and things that are soft and pink and pretty and pajama parties and hopscotch and jump rope and Barbies and tea parties.”
As usual, Venice’s ex-gay ministry makes great claims:
Venice says he has a solid track record of putting his clients back on the straight and narrow, but, until now, he has shunned publicity in the secular press.
“Stories like mine are a dime a dozen, but you won’t ever find them on the five-o’-clock news, because the media is pro-gay,” he says.
Venice plays the typical ex-gay martyr. He provides no verification of his successes but blames a liberal media for not publishing his unsubstantiated claims. Perhaps he doesn’t recognize that his definition of success is not consistent with what most people, reporters included, would consider success.
For example, Venice provided Garrison with “Don”, who three years after beginning his journey away from homosexuality, says he’s happier with himself but readily confesses to having an impure thought every now and again.
“My attraction level went down, but it didn’t go away,” he says. “It’s a daily thing. It’s not like you’re going to go to a class and you’re healed instantly. I’m not going to tell you that.”
For Venice, though, Don represents another success story and boasts that 75 to 80 percent of people who adhere to his program eventually cleanse themselves of homosexuality.
“Let me ask you,” Venice begins. “What if over the course of the year someone’s attraction level went from a ten to a one or a two? Would you say that’s successful? I would, and most people who continue with the program will see their attraction level eventually go down to zero.”
What Venice fails to clarify is how a gay person with an “attraction level” of one or two, or any number at all for that matter, is somehow no longer gay. They may not spend their afternoons cruising bathrooms or obsessing about porn (or whatever it is that unhappy people with “attraction levels” of 10 do), but they are still attracted to the same sex. Most rational people, reporters included, would not see a “former homosexual” but instead would see a chaste gay man.
Venice claims the Exodus standby of molestation and absent father for causing his attraction to men. But Venice has a twist:
Jim Venice was born in St. Louis to teenaged parents. He was just four years old when his father went to prison — purportedly for a crime so distressing that Venice still won’t talk about it. With three baby boys to feed, Venice says, his mother worked two jobs, often leaving little Jim and his brothers with female babysitters. Twice, he claims, the sitters molested him. He declines to elaborate.
“What does it matter,” he asks brusquely, “if I was molested or raped? Molestation is traumatic no matter how it’s performed.”
The reporter balances her article with a story about an Exodus survivor, David Belt:
Twice Belt walked down the aisle, only for his marriages to end when he could not rid his mind of homosexual desires. In 2000, toward the end of his second marriage, Belt began reading literature put out by the ex-gay ministry.
Out of view from his wife, he pored over books like Homosexual No More and Pursuing Sexual Wholeness. Belt even completed an online version of the twenty-week Living Waters course. But it wasn’t until he attended an Exodus support group (then held at church in west county) that Belt concluded the ministry — and its message — was not for him.
“I could suppress acting on being gay, but it didn’t make me happy or whole,” he says. “The irony is, had I not done Exodus I don’t think I’d ever have come out. I’m a bit of a rebel, and when they started telling me what to believe and how to act, my natural reaction was to go against the grain.”
Demonstrating Venice’s ignorance about Belt and his life and Venice’s immediate dismissal of any experiences outside the Exodus mantra:
People like Belt, says Venice, realize there is a way out of homosexuality but don’t want to change for fear of losing the life they’ve known or come to expect.
But it was Belt’s “heterosexual lifestyle” that made him miserable. He did change and lost the life he’d known and come to expect. And is much happier.
Overall the article was fairly balanced. Initially it seemed like a piece of propaganda for Venice’s viewpoint. And the reported did not directly challenge Venice’s assertions. But that could have been overkill, anyway. In presenting the positions of the psychiatric community and a MCC minister, Venice’s positions took on a sheen of self-delusion. My only criticism would be that all people interviewed, gay and anti-gay, seemed to view homosexuality as some great burden, not a position I espouse.
I thought that, for once The Vital Voice was ahead of the game and more informative (not that I’m biased or anything, since I wrote the VV articles)…
The writer could have found more people in STL that would have spoken out more firmly against Venice. He should have talked to professors at Wash U and doctors at Barnes, two top notch institutions locally which would give even more weight against Venice. The MCC church is a natural counter-point, but there are also other gay friendly denoms in town.
Anyway, my articles are listed here…
https://del.icio.us/quetzalphoenix/VitalVoice
I agree, being gay isn’t a burden, tragedy, undesirable or requires alteration.
The great burden of homosexuality, is heterosexuals.
At the age of five or six???Perhaps for a very late developer, but try more like the age of 2 to 3. That is when children gender identify — and make loud comments to notify the world of this fact.But I guess we can add Jim to the list of ex-gays who had an abusive, twisted, and very odd childhood. Oh, and claiming expertise when he’s not a qualified professional.-Real conversation in supermarket queue with borrowed child:
God love ’em.
P.S. for those interested…Do not call it a pee-pee (or a wee-wee or whatever silly name you have) with a 2 year old. Use the correct noun.There is nothing embarrassing about having either a vagina or a penis, or using the correct word. Using silly words suggests otherwise, and makes the adult appear immature.But in Jim Venice’s case — too late!
I did a bit of clicking around, and it appears that this “Riverfront Times” publication is an “alternative weekly.” I couldn’t find out much about the management, but it should be clear that more than a few stories in these “alternative weeklies” are pretty much planted. Someone with an ax to grind contacts a reporter at the publication, provides him with a story, and they publish it. The “reporter” does a “Judith Miller” (who was a “reporter” at the NYTimes who basically re-wrote GWBush press-releases for publication in the NYTimes) and voila! that’s the story that is printed.
Be very skeptial of what is published in “alternative weeklies.” For that matter, be very skeptical of what is published in the NYTimes.
Um, er, ah, do kids really run around nekkid so that other kids can observe them? That is the import of the quoted portion of the Venice article above.
I tried to post a comment earlier about this article–since I am a writer for The Vital Voice, the St. Louis LGBT paper, but it hasn’t shown up here yet–I apologize if it does later, and this becomes a duplicate.
We ran a series several months before this one, which was much more informative, I think (and yes, I did write it)–the link is below.
I was contacted by the writer of this story about doing an interview, but it never came about. I also tried to get Jim Venice to talk to me for the Vital Voice, but he “prayed about it” and never called back. I guess God told him that our newspaper would be biased.
https://del.icio.us/quetzalphoenix/VitalVoice
No Raj, you’re supposed to be hanging out with your dad in the shower observing each other’s peepees, don’t you remember? The heterosexual lifestyle is very peepee centered. You guys were just too busy filling your bowls with something other than everyone else’s peepees.
raj, are you saying that we shouldn’t trust the story because it’s too negative?
I noticed that in the article they only have the most vague of “success” stories, and the most prominent “success” story (Tim) never says that he is now with a woman or happy or fulfilled. They claim that thousands of people have come to their place in the past few years – thousands of people have come to a place that never advertises their address? This is the same group where Ms. Thornhill said that something like 90% of those who attend have success. I guess the man they mention who still goes to public toilets is not in the 90%.
Apparently, the existence of gay men who think of themselves as men (as opposed to intergendered inverts) is unknown to Mr. Venice and his rather creepy ilk.
Note, not that there’s anything wrong with being an intergendered invert – indeed, I’ve known a few who were wonderful people.
Unlike Mr. Venice, et al.
It’s amazing how far the ex-gay ministers will go to find some correlation between their life and the ex-gay orthodox dogma.
For example, Venice needed “molestation” so he came up with some example from some young female babysitter. His molestation is very vague and he refused to clarify for the journalist.
He needed an absent father figure so… viola, he had one. But a careful review of the story shows that Dad was present at least through the birth of his sibling, FOUR YEARS YOUNGER. And then Dad went off to jail. But when HE WAS FIVE, he got a stepdad. So the “absent father figure” window is very narrow, maybe one year.
Poor Jim Venice. He really had to stretch to fit the stereotype.
This is what I mean by the rote list that ex gays work from to explain homosexuality and it’s causes.
If one doesn’t fit, then SOMETHING will, and there are only a few choices on the list.
If none fit, then the homosexual is simply ‘not with God and Christ’ and has to renounce being gay, just because ‘it is written’.
I’m on the outside looking in, and it’s too, too, WEIRD how ex gays try to explain away something that really doesn’t require it and isn’t complicated.
And all of it cloaked in fear, sin, every negative that can be thrown to it.
Evidence backs up the facts about homosexuality, none of which is something that ex gays or those who support ex homosexuality will acknowlege and put into the discussion.
To simply ignore or deny evidence speaks to intellectual dishonesty.
It complicates dialogue and promotes unrealistic and unfair expectations.
But especially the latter.
Suspending human rights, freedom and protection conditional on changing from gay to straight, requires extraordinary means and practices no other human being is subject to.
And this is the tyranny of a majority that there is a guarantee of protection from written into the Bill of Rights and Constitution.
Anyone that says that gays and lesbians have no rights to marry or have children or expect Consitutional protection are wrong.
The protections are not for their homosexuality.
But that their homosexuality not be used as a destructive means to gay PEOPLE for equal protection and access to legal life choices and pursuits straight people have.
Bible beliefs cannot trump common human rights and pursuits.
This was the intent of the Founders. Precisely because religious belief is an individual choice not reasonable enough for the COMMON good.
And no one who is anti gay has proven that gay equality compromises the common good.
I doubt the current SCOTUS will see it that way, even though it’s their job to.
James at December 15, 2005 12:15 PM
raj, are you saying that we shouldn’t trust the story because it’s too negative?
No, James. I’m saying that we shouldn’t trust the story because it’s too stupid. Or, to use my “nice” term, it strains credulity.
At some point, things like this get to be ridiculous.
If you want to believe everything that is posted on the Internet, merely because it is posted on the Internet, feel free. I do not believe everything that is posted on the Internet, merely because it is posted on the Internet. And I will let you know when I do not.
“No, James. I’m saying that we shouldn’t trust the story because it’s too stupid. Or, to use my “nice” term, it strains credulity.”
I don’t believe everything I read on the Internet, I just wanted to know more of what you meant since you said the paper was an alternative weekly. Those are usually GLBT papers. I wasn’t sure if you meant that the article was taking a certain tone because they are a gay-oriented paper. Sorry if I offended you.
James at December 15, 2005 10:22 PM
I just wanted to know more of what you meant since you said the paper was an alternative weekly. Those are usually GLBT papers.
Not necessarily, There is an “alternative weekly” here in Boston that is not a GLBT paper–the Boston Phoenix. There is an alternative weekly–whose name I forget–directed to news regarding Jews. There are a myriad of alternative weeklies. When I encounter an article on one, I always try to figure out what ax they have to grind, which is usually evident from the “who are we” page. It was unclear from their page.
ON THE OTHER HAND, being a long-time observer, it is clear to me that more than a few of these stories in free or low-cost media are planted. And that has become more common among the so-called main-stream media.
Further to my previous post, lest anyone wonder, the paper directed to news directed to Jews is the Forward. https://www.forward.com/
Hope this comment goes through–the RFT is not a gay paper, see my replies above for the St. Louis LGBT paper.
They have a penchant for writing ambiguous, “controversial” stories. My hunch is, since the writer of this article contacted me after my stories had begun running in the Vital Voice, that they got the idea from us. Venice is the more high profile ex-gay group in St. Louis, but there are others, which come at the topic from different angles–in response to raj’s suspicion of the article being planted. I don’t think it was.
I think it is a fault of the RFT for not doing more than exploring Venice’s group, and it is just their shoddy reporting skills that turned out this one-sided article. Their writers are encouraged to be flamboyant in their writing style; if you take out the descriptive gunk and leave behind substance, you have a much shorter article.
But as I’ve said before, I’m biased as a St. Louisan who is sick of the RFT and wanting to grow our LGBT paper until people view us as their primary source of news for this kind of article.
Well, ck, I have to tell you that there are many many people who would not be caught dead holding a “gay” paper who will read an article on ex-gays in the straight-focused alternative weekly. Some of those people who would not be caught dead with the “gay” paper are closet cases, like myself until about 2 years ago. Certainly ex-gays and conservative-Christian-raised people are going to have a hard time reading a “gay” paper, and most heterosexuals will pass the “gay” paper by, thinking it has no relevance to them, just like most white urban St. Louisans ignore the equally free African-American weekly, the American.
So no, I do not think that the “gay” paper in any given city ought to be the only one covering news of relevance to LGBT and friends. That pretty much guarantees that most hets will remain ignorant.
As for factual matters, I know both of the MCC people quoted, the pastor and the ex-ex-gay, and the quotes sound like them, and I have heard the ex-ex-gay describe his experiences long before any article was printed in St. Louis media.
The RFT is an alternative weekly in the same sense as most Village Voice clones – many many ads for sexual toys, services, movies, and personals ads, plus many arts, events, restaurant reviews and one or two feature articles a weekly. There is no regular gay content apart from the Dan Savage column and the ads for gay phone sex.
The Jewish Forward has been published for over a century. It is a long standing alternative paper. In Chicago, there is a daily in Polish. And weeklies in almost all European languages. These types of papers have been around a long, long time. Svenska Americaneran dates back to the 1860’s, AIR.
So no, I do not think that the “gay” paper in any given city ought to be the only one covering news of relevance to LGBT and friends. That pretty much guarantees that most hets will remain ignorant.
NancyP, I should rephrase. I would like to see the Vital Voice become a primary news source, not just for LGBT issues. I don’t think that other media should ignore gay stories, but that the VV should become a more legitimate newspaper. That is what I was trying to say, unsuccessfully.
Right now, there are too many covers featuring drag queens for that to happen–no heterosexual or closeted person will, I agree, pick up the paper.
Dalea at December 16, 2005 11:42 PM
Agreed. I don’t know whether German language newspapers were published in Cincinnati (where I was raised in the 1960s), but I do know that Italian language newspapers are still published in Boston (where I reside now).
Fortunately, the Forward is published in English. I’d hate to have to read Hebrew from right to left. Funny story: I went to Tel Aviv for work about a decade ago. One of the engineers that I dealt with started writing in Roman (English) script from right to left. We both started chuckling.
So no, I do not think that the “gay” paper in any given city ought to be the only one covering news of relevance to LGBT and friends. That pretty much guarantees that most hets will remain ignorant.
I’m not sure where ck got this from, but the problem is that more than a few “mainstream” newspapers largely ignored gay issues, and even refused to use the word “gay.” And that is why the “gay” media took root. I was in WashDC in the mid 1970s when Washington Blade was (I believe) first published. The NYTimes refused to cover gay issues, or even use the word gay for over a decade thereafter. Allegedly, of course.
Link? https://www.signorile.com/articles/advonyt.html The entire article is interesting, but scroll down to “Rosenthal” It has been reported that Rosenthal not only ignored the HIV/AIDS crisis in NYC while he was editor of the NYTime, he also refused to allow the use of the term “gay,” and he caused the NYTimes to ignore any coverage of the gay pride parades in the 1980s.
So, why the gay media? Because the mainstream media largely ignored issues relevant to gay people.
I’m not sure where ck got this from, but the problem is that more than a few “mainstream” newspapers largely ignored gay issues, and even refused to use the word “gay.”
I’m not sure but I think you meant NancyP, not CK. Then again, it is difficult to follow a thought through the quotes when they are not identified with the name of the quoted.
David
This is completely relevant to nothing, but it’s a slow Saturday so…
“Funny story: I went to Tel Aviv for work about a decade ago. One of the engineers that I dealt with started writing in Roman (English) script from right to left.”
I’ve no idea whether anyone else does this, but since I was a kid I’ve been able to write in a cursive script from left to right (it appears normal if viewed in a mirror or if you hold the paper up to a light and read it from the back blank side). For the first few seconds I have to think about the direction of loops, especially b’s and f’s, but within a few lines it seems almost usual. I don’t do it often but it always comes back easily.
OK, back to regular programming
Well Timothy — there’s an easy explantion for that.You are obviously a witch. (and no that’s not a typo. I did mean to use the “w” in the word…)I’m sure, under examination, we will find a mole or two on you somewhere. Then all we need do is identify your familiar, and pull a few fingernails until we get that signed confession.I’m sure your village will appreciate a nice big bonfire at this time of year. Nothing like a community-based burning to bring the good folks together.
Does that explain why everytime I go to sweep the floor I find the broom lifting me up and carrying me around the kitchen? Cuz I’ve been wondering about that
😉