From Brady at Some Guys Are Normal comes word of a new blog by a Christian woman trying to work through her same-sex attraction. Her first post observes a fundamental difference between gay celibacy and the heterosexual wait for marriage.
In Brady’s comments, exgay advocate Nathan Sheets agrees that there’s a lot more to being same-sex-attracted than just sex or abstinence.
(By the way, whenever Ex-Gay Watch authors are on hiatus, you can find plenty of exgay news and opinion at Some Guys Are Normal. Y’all remember to just come back, y’hear?)
Thanks for the post, Mike!
Whoa, saw a huge jump in people looking at my site today! Thanks for linking to me. 🙂
LOVE IN ACTION FACES POSSIBLE CEASE AND DESISIT ORDERS…
FOR MORE INFO:
http://WWW.FIGHTINGHOMOPHOBIA.BLOGSPOT.COM
I feel so bad for people like this. I guess I don’t know a good non-tacky way to ask this question, so I’m just going to blurt it out. Why on earth are people like her still Christians? I mean, I read the top three posts on her site and just felt so sorry for her. I know that some people really get into this whole Christianity thing, but when all you’re writing about is how your religion brings you pain, isolation, self doubt, and then more pain, why stick with it? I thought that religion was supposed to heal a person, make them better and more whole, not make them feel like shit. Maybe I’m being over simplistic, but I guess I would have said screw it long ago…. Gay Evangelical Christians seem to have this abusive relationship with God where he is constantly telling them that they are worthless and knocking their teeth out. And I don’t understand why they stay….
For the record, many gay Christians have reconciled their faith with their sexuality – and many feel that the Bible doesn’t actually condemn loving homosexual relationships. There are also some that feel like they should be celibate but still identify as gay (in other words, don’t attempt change since so much evidence points to it not working). You might be interested in looking at gaychristian.net if you’re interested in finding out more.
Sarah, I often wonder the same thing. Reading all of the posts in her blog, I note that for Pride, she went to a gay-affirming church. JJ, you’ve posted here in these comments, so if you’re still looking in, perhaps you can give your perspective on why you continue to attend a church that is conditional in its love towards you—especially when there is a church in your area that reaches out and approaches LGBT folk with love and acceptance.
Faith is a funny thing. It does not follow the course of logic. It can often be based on fears, teachings when young, or even superstition. Sometimes you believe something because on some gut level you just “know” it to be true.
It is not inconsistent to believe God created you gay but wants you to live chaste. And we all have our burdens to carry. Without knowing JJ, I suspect her faith may mirror this thought.
It is even possible to believe that God created you some way (be it gay, short, asian, or curly-haired) and hates you that way.
I addressed this issue many years ago. And I took an approach that (for me at the time) was bold. I “knew” that there is a power greater than me. I also knew that my sexual orientation was not something that I decided or chose. Whether God created my orientation by means of genes or by means of formative environment, it was not me but He that had made me gay.
I decided one of two things must be true:
Either… God condemned me for being the way he created me, as I had been taught. If this were true, then God is evil, as only an evil deity would condemn someone for being what He had created. I would not worship evil.
Or… the teaching I had received was flawed and God did not condemn me for being His creation.
The rest of it (to have sex or not and, if so, in what context) would take time. And study. And a greater understanding of the message of Christ. Where one finds oneself on this is all a part of one’s spiritual journey and, frankly, not subject to anyone else’s criticism.
Timothy, you misunderstand. Human beings–for the most part–are not rational beings, they are rationalizing beings. They work backwards from their preferred conclusions to the propositions that they believe support their preconceived notions. And they reject any evidence to that is contrary to their preconceived notions. I have noticed that more often than not on the internet over the last decade.
I basically rejected religion in 1960, when I was 10 years old. Our American (northern) Baptist preacher exuded so much anti-Catholic bigotry–although it was not overt–against Kennedy that I was repulsed. So much so, that I haven’t believed a word that organized religion has said since.
And I wasn’t even a Roman Catholic.
Well, my question for JJ was sincere in that I would like to understand her thinking on why she would choose to continue attending a church that is not inclusive over a church that is. I understand quite well that there are many deep and complicated reasons for why we choose those things we do. I want to understand what *JJ’s* reasons are because I think her perspective is important in understanding a facet of Christianity that we can sometimes view in too simplistic a way.
I thought I’d check in here, and lo and behold, there are questions for me. Weird.
First of all, the question of why I am still a Christian… I’m a Christian because I believe it to be true. I know that this is hard for people who don’t believe to understand… they think of religion as serving some sort of purpose, whereas most people who believe see this ‘purpose’ as more of a byproduct of the truth of their faith.
As for why I’m attending the church I go to as opposed to the gay-friendly church, this is a complicated question. First of all, I will say that my church is not ‘conditional’ in their love for me. They love me. The few who know (We’re up to 8 people now) all love me unconditionally, whether or not they believe that gay relationships are okay — their love for me as a person doesn’t wavor. I attend this church because I feel loved, I feel like I belong, I have friends there, but more than that I believe that it is where God wants me to be. The preaching is good (I have never heard an anti-gay sermon their, I just know the doctrine of the church would be to prescribe celibacy for me), and the worship is good, and the fellowship is good. The gay-friendly church does not really have the type of worship I like (not that I think that there is anything wrong with what they have, but I have trouble following it, and therefore trouble worshipping). I did get a call from some of the people there about a group I may join called Dignity… but I don’t think I’ll be leaving my church anytime soon.
I guess, JJ, that it is hard to understand you when you say on your blog:
” I kept thinking that for the most part, most people at my church would not think that I, as a gay woman, am a part of “God’s wonderfully diverse creation”… they probably believe that I am a deviation from it, I am outside of God’s natural order, I don’t fit in with what God designed.”
But then you say here:
“First of all, I will say that my church is not ‘conditional’ in their love for me. They love me. The few who know (We’re up to 8 people now) all love me unconditionally, whether or not they believe that gay relationships are okay — their love for me as a person doesn’t wavor. I attend this church because I feel loved, I feel like I belong, I have friends there, but more than that I believe that it is where God wants me to be.”
How do you reconcile in yourself what seem to be two different feelings about your church?
I guess the difference between the two feelings is that the perspective of the people at my church on homosexuality does not affect their love for me… whatever they may feel about this particular part of me (and to be fair, I haven’t told that many of them so I haven’t given them the chance to weigh in on it) does not change how they feel about me.
It does hurt to think that they may feel that I am outside of God’s design, I obviously can’t deny that… but, well… with the exception of the one woman who told me that she thought that because humans are made in God’s image that there was no way anyone was actually gay, I could just be projecting. No one has said that to me. I think I’m probably right, but all that they have ever expressed to me (including that one woman) is their love for me.
As to the other church, they seemed very nice, and like I said, I may join a group they have there… but I do want to know a bit more about their theology, because that — to me — is more important in choosing a church than their stance on this one issue.
Robis- sometimes there are people who say they love the sinner but hate the sin, and they actually mean it. It’s rare tho.
I can relate to a lot of what JJ is saying. There was an infamous anti-gay marriage piece written in Christianity Today some time back in 2004 by Drs. Gerald McDermott and Robert Benne that used shoddy logic, shoddier citations, garbage from Paul Cameron, and the “gays will molest children” libel. It was without question a nasty piece of work, and given their background inexcusable in the sloppy citations, if not bordering on dishonest.
But at the same time… Dr. Mcdermott is actually a personal friend. He was my faculty advisor. We’re even both godparents to the same baby. (The baptism makes for a pretty funny story. Suffice it to say I had to jog his memory several times, and I haven’t been out of school that long.) I’m extremely disappointed in him. I’ve lost some of my respect for him. But I can’t hate him. I hate what he did, but at the end of the day he was a huge influence on my life and I know he’s not a bad person. (And neither is Benne) We have one huge area of disagreement. I couldn’t pretend it’s not a problem, but I just can’t hate him. Maybe you just have to experience something like that to understand.
Well put, Boo
Often time we are quick to paint those who disagree with us as being evil, bad people. Some are (I would put Cameron in this class). But a sizable chunk of them are nothing worse than people who believe their own lies.
Thank you, JJ, for your insightful answer. It’s a rare person who can approach such questions without getting defensive and it is refreshing to discuss these things with such a person (to tell the truth, if I hadn’t read your blog and been confident beforehand how you would take my questioning, I might have hesitated saying anything).
I can understand what you are saying, and I am trying hard not to filter it through my own devastating experiences growing up in a gay-negative church. What is interesting is, I recently went home to attend my brother’s wedding which was being held in the church I grew up in. My husband was with me, and was accepted with open arms and with no illusions of who and what he is to me. The pastor, especially, went out of his way to make him feel welcome and to let him know there was place for him there. At the same time, on the vestibule bulletin board in a prominent position, was a letter that one of the congregation had sent to Santorum about how evil homosexuals were. At the time, I found it inconceivable that such a letter could be celebrated at the same time that welcoming arms could be offered to my husband. I still find myself trying to figure it all out, because there seems to be a disconnect between the way the congregation specifically treats individuals while actively villifying them in in the abstract. I can’t help but wonder if it doesn’t even occur to many people that the abstract group is still made up of people–if they did, it would probably be harder for them to look so proudly upon such a letter while embracing the individual that letter attacks.
Anyway, that’s where my question came from, and why I asked it…
Boo,
I understand what you are saying. Surely some of us even have family that ‘disagrees’ with homosexuality, but whom we still love. I realize that Dr. Mcdermott is important in your life, but in this case he seems to be fairly culpable. It would be hard for me to excuse someone that has used patently false information like Cameron studies to try to prove a point, studies that paint such horrible stereotypes that they make gay people look like monsters.
If my dad used Cameron rhetoric, I would assume he didn’t know Cameron’s background, and I would inform him and expect him to drop that. But, I have to assume that Mcdermott knows the highly suspect studies of Cameron, and the fact that he regurgitates them would leave me personally in a situation that I would be losing a friend. Being misinformed or even having different viewpoints (no matter how wrong) is one thing, but actively disseminating libelous, hateful, false information is quite another.
Sorry, I don’t mean to sound rude, but Cameron and the re-use of his lies are a big issue for me.
I looked it up, and apparently the Cameron citations were only used in an earlier version written for something called the Public Theology Project, then dropped from the Christianity Today version.
I know it’s not an excuse. And the other citations they used seem to actually have no relationship whatsoever to the claims they made, which is just frigging bizarre. Knowing them as I do I really don’t think this was malice tho. McDermott’s brilliant in his subject areas, but when he goes outside them I’ve noticed he could get kinda sloppy. Once when we were actually discussing this issue in his office I had to correct his mistaken belief that gay people already had the right to marry.
I probably need to talk to him, but our last meeting was… weird.
Point being, things like this are never black and white.
McDermott pushes books to a target audience. That’s the long and the short of it. Brilliant scholar? I doubt it.
I’ll hesitate to draw an analogy to Throckmorton. Actually, no I haven’t–I just did so.
/sarcasm
One interesting thing is that Cameron was cited in one of the dissenting opinions in the MA Supreme Judicial Court’s decision in Goodridge. I had thought about calling the justice to task for that, but I didn’t.
Um… far as I know, everyone who publishes books pushes them to target audiences. Trust me, I’ve seen McDermott’s house. He’s not in this to get rich. He’s a believer. Unfortunately he believes some things that are wrong. Not everyone who’s against us is a money-grubbing demon.
I think the important thing is to not constantly villify the people who we disagree with. It happens on both sides, and it basically makes any real dialogue on the subject impossible. People who think that being gay is wrong are not necessarily bad people… they’re just (in my opinion) wrong.