Kodak wants to make transgender employees comfortable by giving them their own bathroom. Mara Keisling is with the National Center for Transgender Equality. She commends Kodak for helping America get over its fears.
“For some reason Americans don’t like to be in bathrooms with people who are different than them. And we always get past it with a particular group and then we find another group.”
She thinks gender neutral bathrooms will keep transgender people from being harassed. Robert Knight of Concerned Women for America is not as ready to praise Kodak and others for their concern.
“If companies want to add bathrooms to accommodate these demands it’s their business, but it isn’t an act of compassion. It’s an act of co-dependence.” [*]
Wait just a second…
Robert Knight -> [male]
CWFA -> [female]
So, speaking of gender confusion…
Oh come on people we’ve all wondered why a man is always representing a group with “women” in the name. Now seemed as good of a time as any to poke fun at the obvious. But in the words of Mike Airhart, exgays have no sense of humor so I’m sure I’ll get smack for this.
Moving to a serious note, please note how Knight offers no substantiation for his claims.
Isn’t it cute when dominionists normally preoccupied with us queers attempt these even more irrational forays into attacking trans folk.
Well at least now they will have a place to pee until they work out all those “issues”.
Yes, it’s just awful having issues AND a burstin’ bladder.OK, I’ll bite. It think this press release should more accurately read:
Most of the spokes persons for the CWFA appear to be men. (I believe that Peter LaBarbera is there, too). Some of us have started calling in the Confused Women In America.
Their nominal head is a woman, but that’s about it.
For those of you who might not remember Peter LaBarbera (I’m not sure I’m spelling the name right) he once had a gig with FRC (I believe it was). He was their “anti-gay expert.” In an interview, he mentioned that he had a lot of gay pornography in his office for research purposes For research purposes? Yeah, right.
ROTFL
BTW, I’ve seen women exiting rest rooms that were nominally designated for men. (I put it that way intentionally, and they usually used those rest rooms because of a backup at the rest rooms that were nominally designated for women.)
What is the issue regarding M->F transgendered people not using the rest rooms that are nominally designated for men?
We have discussed these transgendered issues for a number of years on the NYTimes gay rights message board, but I still have trouble understanding them.
Ostensibly, there are two issues, I suppose.
First, MtFs who look and sound like men coming into the women’s room and freaking the other women out.
Second, the lack of any objective criteria for determining who is and isn’t “legitimately” trans is used as a scare tactic to raise the specter of hordes of perverted guys flooding the women’s room to peek at the ladies and declaring they have every right to be there because they’re “transgendered.”
The first issue can hopefully be solved to some degree by education, both of the non-trans so they don’t get as freaked out by us anymore and of the trans so more and more of us transition young enough that we get enough effects out of hormones that this stops being an issue.
The second is really more an issue of behavior. If someone’s in the bathroom being a creep, call security to get rid of them and their creepy behavior, regardless of whether or not they claim to be transgendered.
Btw, Reasonable, I’m going to assume your post was directed at CWFA.
My own opinion, I suppose these might be ok as a transitional (pardon the pun) place for some trans-folk before they start using the correct restroom, but in the long run it’s just another way of saying we not REALLY women or men. (Well, this is pretty much all once again about MtFs. I’ve never known of an FtM with bathroom issues.)
I too, have noticed the numerous males speaking on behalf of Concerned WOMEN for America, and I actually have thought about blogging about it a few times.
My thoughts are this- how could they be a conservative group without any men involved. I think they are afraid if they don’t allow men, they would be too quickly dismissed by other conservatives.
“Btw, Reasonable, I’m going to assume your post was directed at CWFA.”
You assume correctly, and it was meant to (lightheartedly) reflect the fact that none of this is any of their (CWFA) business.
Oh yeah, third issue:
Really effeminate looking MtFs who haven’t transitioned yet getting beat up in the men’s room. That kinda sucks too. But organiations like CWFA usually just raise the first two.
Combining a few paragraphs….
First, MtFs who look and sound like men coming into the women’s room and freaking the other women out.
Second, the lack of any objective criteria for determining who is and isn’t “legitimately” trans
There was more, but that’s basiscally what came down on the NYTimes gay pride board a few years ago.
There is a simple remedy. If the women was threatened by an M in the ostensibly F rest room, the woman have a simple remedy: I’ll put it starkly. Kick him in the–um–testicles. That will put him out of service for several hours.
What to do about Trans? I don’t know. I’ve been to trans web sites, but I don’t have the slightest idea what a trans is. Some of them seem to suggest that gay people should consider themselves transgendered. I don’t, and neither does my spouse. We both know that we are male. Quite frankly, I have an idea what transgendered is intended to refer to, but it does not conform to the idea on those web sites.
>>What to do about Trans? I don’t know. I’ve been to trans web sites, but I don’t have the slightest idea what a trans is. Some of them seem to suggest that gay people should consider themselves transgendered. I don’t, and neither does my spouse. We both know that we are male. Quite frankly, I have an idea what transgendered is intended to refer to, but it does not conform to the idea on those web sites.
Well, like I keep saying, I don’t really know what “transgendered” is either. When I said trans earlier I was using it as shorthand for just transsexuals. As far as transvestites, I really don’t think they have any business in the women’s room period.
On most public forums, most people who self-identify as “transgendered” are not transsexual. (And many people who do self-identify as transsexual are lying, but you’ll just have to take my word that I am who I say I am)
The most important thing to remember about transsexuals is that we are first and foremost individuals. While the condition of transsexualism itself may well turn out to have a single biological cause, the experience of being transsexual is society is highly variable. And I would guess, but its just an educated guess, that there’s a very rough correlation between the degree of gender dysphoria experienced and the age at which someone transitions (the more, the younger).
Anyway, transgendered- political term with no clear definition which just causes confusion, away with it!
The remedy is exactly the same remedy used for opposite gender parents taking their very young children to the bathroom.
They are called ‘family’ restrooms. They are single stall, that can also accomodate the handicapped.
Plenty of large entertainment venues already have them.
The sign has a mixed male and female symbol with a child figure in the middle with the handicapped sign right next to it.
Other public places usually only have one bathroom that’s not only for patrons, but employees as well.
Or a single room bathroom each. And if one is empty, anyone can use it-male or female or in between.
As for dress codes: uniforms or unisex clothing clears that up in places where cross dressing might be an issue.
This is only a problem for ignorant people in CWA who don’t like the real world they are living in, want other people to bow to their archaic, unrealistic and stupid demands.
Boo, I’ve been discussing these issues regarding transgendered individuals on the NYTimes gay rights board for years. There appear to be two major issues. One is the “restroom” issue: non-transgendered women fear that men, who claim to be M->F transgendered are merely voyeurs. The second is that women believe that M->F transgendered are mocking women.
These are not minor issues, by the way. Gay people (and in that I include Lesbians) have worked diligently for over 30 years to try to get the larger society to accept them, with only a slight degree of success in some states. For a reason that I do not understand, supposed gay rights organizations such as HRC are now branching out to another minority (transgendered) when they haven’t achieved anything for gay people (achievements have come at the state level),
Regan, I’ve noticed “family” changing areas at the gym we go to. They also included rest room facilities of course. The problem I see with family rest rooms is that usually they are individual rooms that take up a lot of space. I don’t have any objection to them, but they would probably reduce the number of “facilities” available to the patrons. When we would go to the theater or a sports game, I was always surprised at the length of the line in front of the ladies’ restroom, in comparison to the length in front of the men’s rest room, and I didn’t particularly care that women would use the rest room facilities that were ostensibly for men. So, quite frankly, it wasn’t an issue for me.
So – what does CWFA propose that they do? Do they recommend that transfolk use the restroom that corresponds with the gender designation on the original birth certificate? And then what would they do with women who are confused by a man in their restroom, or men at a urinal as a woman walks by to the stalls? Seems like they would be hollering about that as well…
Just no pleasing some folks, is there…
>>Gay people (and in that I include Lesbians) have worked diligently for over 30 years to try to get the larger society to accept them, with only a slight degree of success in some states. For a reason that I do not understand, supposed gay rights organizations such as HRC are now branching out to another minority (transgendered) when they haven’t achieved anything for gay people (achievements have come at the state level),
I think the rationale is that many gays and lesbians are discriminated against because of their gender presentation, and if you don’t cover that base, people who want to discriminate against homosexuals will simply shift the rationale to one of gender presentation if discriminating against sexual orientation per se becomes illegal.
I do agree with you to a certain extent that the trans community has piggy-backed on the gay rights movement and we really need to get our own institutions created, although those of us who are gay and trans still have every right to be in gay orgs.
The “mocking women” thing seems to have mostly faded away from what I can tell except among a certain generation of lesbians who were immersed in second wave feminist identity politics.
I’m a m2f transsexual who follows the Ex-Gay Watch. If one looks at NARTH’s website and reads Nicolosi’s books, it’s pretty clear that ex-gays don’t see a difference between transgender people and gays and lesbians — https://www.narth.com/docs/1996papers/dickson.html is one example. They see both homosexuality and transsexuality as gender disorders.
If folk don’t understand transsexuals, then I find it kind of odd folk would be so willing to proclaim their ignorance on transgender people and issues and leave it at that. One book on the subject is True Selves: Understanding Transsexualism-For Families, Friends, Coworkers, and Helping Professionals (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787902713/104-2233421-8311113?v=glance). A website that’s helpful at understanding transgender psychology is at https://www.genderpsychology.org/.
Transgender issues and gay issues don’t line up 100%, but gay and transgender issues overlap quite a bit.
Autumn at August 27, 2005 09:03 PM
If folk don’t understand transsexuals, then I find it kind of odd folk would be so willing to proclaim their ignorance on transgender people and issues and leave it at that.
The problem that I have, Autumn, is that I do understand transsexuals (pre-and post-op) and transvestites, but “transgendered” is a whole new category that appears to have been invented in recent years.
Lynn Conway, who co-wrote the classic text on integrated circuit design (Meade & Conway), was a pre-op transsexual (well, I’m not sure whether she wrote it as a pre- or post, but the point should be evident)
As far as I can tell, transvestites are actors playing a role. And oftentimes, they are very good at it. Did they actually conceive themselves as being the characters they are playing? I frankly didn’t know; and I frankly didn’t particularly care–I’m not going to have sex with anyone other than my partner. But usually they did it so well that I could not tell that they were male. Were they gay? I don’t know that, either. Did it matter to me that they might have been? No. Decidedly not.
Regarding the topic at hand, the problem regarding transgendered rights arises from two points. One, the transgendered rights operations have tried to define “transgendered” far broader than even more than a few gay people would recognize (it isn’t just transsexual or transvestite, but it would also include gay people like me and my partner, although we know what gender we are). And two of the so-called gay rights operations like HRC and NGLTF have decided to hold equal rights for gay people (which they haven’t become close to achieving) hostage to the transgendered.
So, we have decided to avoid HRC, in favor of local and regional organizations that have actually achieve some results.
I’ll put it to you gently. If you are a transgendered person, do your work with the vox populi.
Raj,
I’m not sure where to begin to answer your comments. But peacefully, let me say you’ve drawn a distinction between gay and transgender people that those on the outside looking in don’t draw. I believe most of society doesn’t differentiate between effeminate gay males, drag queens, cross-dressers, and an m2f transsexuals. We’re all gay in their minds, and when they hurl pejoratives at me and other transgender people, it’s the gay pejoratives of ‘fairy’ and ‘fag.’ If you believe that transgender people have stopped ENDA and LLEA bills in previous Congresses, I don’t believe you paid attention to Congress the other nine years the two pieces of legislation were submitted and didn’t pass.
I personally was sexually harassed near the end of my military career by another male, and my harasser didn’t harass me because he thought I was a closet transsexual or cross-dresser, but he stated it was because he thought I was gay. Should I have blamed gay men who don’t behave by society’s gender expectations for being discriminated against? I don’t believe that’s a realistic response.
Perhaps you’ve read ‘A Parents Guide To Preventing Homosexuality’ by Joseph & Linda Ames Nicolosi (with quotes by many others in the book), or any of the other Nicolosi books on homosexuality. The Ex-Gay movement leaders don’t seem to draw distinctions between transsexual people and gay people — we all have gender identity disorder in their minds. My own Mom handed me ‘A Parents Guide To Preventing Homosexuality’ shortly after I told her I’m a transsexual in hopes it would spur me to go to reparative therapy.
Martin Luther King Jr. stated in a letter from a Birmingham Jail (April 16, 1963) “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” If you believe that transsexuals and other transgender people are holding back the gay community’s civil rights and protections, I’m not sure you’ve identified your oppressors correctly. We both are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality as both of our respective parts of the GLBT community have the full attention of the religious right — and they don’t see any difference between us. And, the religious right wants both gays and transsexuals to take the cure of reparative therapy to become acceptably human. “We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.” — Another applicable Martin Luther King Jr. quote.
Gently Raj, I believe it would be better to work together for all of our civil rights and protections, and against those who seek to oppress us, than blame me and my community for holding back your civil rights. Transsexuals and other transgender people don’t have the power to hold back your civil rights; it’s the religious right who believe they speak as the vox populi vox Dei that hold all of our civil rights hostage.
Autumn at August 30, 2005 03:21 AM
We have discussed the “T” vs “G&L” issue at length over at the NYTimes Gay Rights board over the last few years, and to some extent, I agree with you. I believe that you may be misunderstanding my issues. My issues are basically two.
First, some “T” supportive web sites want to define “T” so broadly as to be virtually meaningless. Some T supportive web sites want to describe T so broadly as to include not only pre/post/no-op transsexuals, but also transvestites (many of whom might be straight), gays & lesbians, and so forth.
Second, is that groups like HRC and NGLTF want to hold antidiscrimination legislation covering sexual orientation (G&L) hostage to also including T. That almost happened in NY a couple of years ago, which threatened to kill the legislation. Cooler heads prevailed and the legislation passed covering “sexual orientation.” It may be that, in a couple of years, NY will pass legislation covering Ts. That’s what happened in NYC, by the way. NYC had an anti-discrimination ordinance covering “sexual orientation” for a number of years before they extended it to cover Ts.
If HRC or NGLTF actually gets anything passed at the federal level, I might sit up and listen to them. They haven’t. If they want to hold its passage hostage to T coverage, I don’t particularly care: ENDA is not going anywhere any time soon.
Interesting paper that is somewhat on point: “The Disparate Classification of Gender and Sexual Orientation in American Psychiatry” https://www.priory.com/psych/disparat.htm
House passes trans-inclusive hate crimes amendment
Passed along with bill that raises civil liberties, gay rights concerns
By ELIZABETH WEILL-GREENBERG
Southern Voice
Sep 14, 2005
https://www.southernvoice.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=2472
The House of Representatives passed a transgender inclusive hate crimes amendment Wednesday, despite critics in the gay community who feared that including the transgender community would sabotage its future.
“It shows unequivocally that those that thought Congress couldn’t pass a trans inclusive bill were just wrong,” said Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality. “I don’t know of a single vote we lost because it was trans inclusive.
The hate crimes bill was co-sponsored by Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.), John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), Christopher Shays (R-Conn.) and Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.). The hate crimes amendment passed Wednesday 223 to 199, according to HRC.