Gay bloggers recently had a field day with ex-gay counsellor David Pickup’s “Increasing Manhood” video, one even speculating whether it was a spoof, in the vein of Donnie Davies.
Unfortunately, Pickup (right) and his campaign to undermine the masculinity of gays — while supposedly helping them to discover their true manhood — are very much for real. Pickup is a member of the “therapeutic team” at Healing for the Soul, the ex-gay ministry of Jayson Graves (left). And who is Jayson Graves? Well, he is a lot of things but what surprises us most is that he is also a board member of Exodus International.
It is not hard to discern the ex-gay genre into which Pickup fits. He is Training Coordinator for an LA chapter of the controversial Mankind Project (New Warriors in Training), and his own Workout program is similarly testosterone-fuelled, leaning heavily on the work of NARTH’s Dr. Joseph Nicolosi.
To get a sense of Pickup’s philosophy of homosexuality and masculinity, one need look no further than this personal ad he placed on Bodybuilding.com in 2000. These things have a tendency to disappear off the Web, so I reprint it here in full, with comments:
My name is David. Let’s get the stats out of the way. I’m 6’2′, 240, 49c, 34w, 18a, all-around big muscular man. I’m 44, and look about 35. Yep, I’m in great shape.
As we’ll see, this kind of detail is apparently key to Pickup’s perception of masculinity. He denies there’s anything homoerotic about this. It’s just something gay men (and, frankly, most straight men) can’t understand without turning it into something sexual — in his opinion.
Now the important stuff. In MY personal experience, I’ve realized I don’t need the sex thing with other men. I need the identifying, affectionate, affirming thing. I now know getting sex from men who especially are big, muscular and masculine was my subconcious attempt to get back what I lost from my father and peers while growing up…the male bond that is close, intimate, affectionate, challenging, tough, and affirming of masculinity. I got a kind of sexual intimacy with other men before, but I feel I had to sacrifice my own sense of masculinity,(being so “into other guys” bodies. I was never as complete a man as these guys.) After sex, the feeling of masculinity I got from other men would never remain permanent within myself. I realized the issue was not sex, it was coming into my own self as a real man…a real body that felt, smelt, looked masculine, and was integrated into my true self. You can’t get this by borrowing it from other men through sex. Manhood is an acheivment that I never graduated to INSIDE where it counts the most.
I still need and long to be with men, especially those who I admire for their physical acheivement and independent attitude. But I get the permanent benefit into myself when the relationship is one that is “iron sharpening iron”, the MUTUAL male bond. The full-on gay guys who go the sex route do not understand this because they haven’t felt what its like to have this kind of bond with another guy, and because they in reality are detached from masculinity because it never hooks up INSIDE their own bodies/spirits,(something our fathers and peers should have helped us to aquire). Gay men can’t conceive of the possiblity of two full grown men who are strong of body, mind and heart who love each other and acheive this kind of intimate bond.
Sure, sometimes I’m still tempted to turn intimacy into a sexual thing, but then I realize all I want is to BOND with another guy who is similar to me, who will help me gain my birthright as a fellow man. When I get that, I feel whole, loved, connected to myself and to my strong brother. I don’t need sex then. In fact, it side-tracks me.
Having said all this incredible stuff which I think not many men out there will believe, I would very much like to hear from guys who want to talk about this, and who are interested in developing a relationship like the one I’ve described above. If you’re gay or straight, that’s fine. Treat this as an experiment. Have you got the balls to really talk about this? In the spirit of this, I’ll tell you, I don’t yet have enough of these experiences with other guys who can go there with me, and I’m tired of wasting time. Thus this ad.
If you message back or email me at [email address removed], I’ll tell you more about who I am. Yeah, I’ll even send the obligatory pic, and it would be cool if you would do the same.
Favorite quote, “The greatest thing you’ll ever know is just to love, and be loved in return.” -song.
Isn’t there something unhealthy about this need for affection from “masculine” men in order to feel secure in his own masculinity? Pickup admits explicitly that (as a no-longer-homosexual man) he needed a body that “felt, smelt, looked masculine,” and that he is now interested in non-sexual relationships with men whose “physical achievements” he admires. While he says it is the “full-on gays” who have a problem being or feeling masculine, who really sounds insecure in his masculinity here? If to be truly masculine I felt the need to be muscley and smell of sweat and hang around with other guys who are muscley and smell of sweat, I’d start looking a little deeper, and not paper over the cracks by surrounding myself with good-looking men to make me feel better about myself.
Jayson Graves is apparently happy to have David Pickup and the odd philosophy he represents on his team — and Exodus is happy to have Graves serving as a board member. We asked Exodus President Alan Chambers about this. He declined to give his own view on Graves, but did confirm that of Exodus’s 16 board members, Graves was not among the nine personally appointed by Chambers. Graves was voted onto the board by Exodus member ministries.
In the past, we’ve seen Chambers attempt to distance himself, and by extension Exodus, from those on the fringes of the ex-gay movement, and here on XGW we’ve been vocal about those we consider beyond the pale, even by Exodus standards. We have never known Chambers to have qualms in being selective about who he shares a platform with, yet he appeared content to join Jayson Graves in defending the ex-gay movement on Fox last year. Listen to Graves as he waffles his way around the host’s attempt to pin him down on the actual content of his therapy:
In the interview, Graves denied being a “conversion therapist,” but went on to say, “I’m just a person who helps people through therapy. But I’ve also walked this road myself. So I’m a person who’s come out of these same gender attractions,” which surely amounts to the same thing. Despite earlier that year having denied that “change” could be “complete,” Chambers too boldly declared, “I used to be a gay man and I’m not today” (available in the full interview).
Why does Chambers disavow promises of “change,” only to revert to such wishy-washy rhetoric and tolerate it from his Exodus colleague, Graves? Alan, is it not an embarrassment to Exodus to be associated with Pickup’s hyper-macho brand of ex-gayism? Alan, does Exodus endorse Graves’s Healing for the Soul counseling practice? With regular signals and promises of a new direction for Exodus, why are embarrassments like this continuing to surface?
Hat Tip: Good As You (video clip)
Sounds to me like hes still gay, but he got over the ‘drooling over mans bodies’.
Being attracted to the same sex is not purely sexual like graves tries to point out. Theres an emotional and romantic component in there…
If he doesnt want a relationship to be ‘sexually intimate’ in the sense of kissing, holding hands, touching.. etc. Then good for him. Just because he doesn’t go ‘that far’, doesnt mean it isnt there, as he states ‘Sure, sometimes I’m still tempted to turn intimacy into a sexual thing”. Key word, ‘tempted’.
I really don’t know what to make of this ‘being masculine thing’. SOunds to me like someone convinced him that being gay and masculinity are separate and hes making up this story of why he believes it so.
“AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT CHOICES AND FREEDOM. “If they only believed in that. And if they do… they have an awkward way of portraying it. Choose this(ex-gay route) or if you choose that(the ‘gay lifestyle’ route) we’re going to be opposing that all the way. Is that what they call ‘choice’?
kinda reminds me of the pro-life, pro-choice dilemma. If your pro-choice your not pro-life, or if your pro-life then theres no choice thus its impossible for you to be pro-choice. I dont think ex-gay ministries are pro-choice, as they dont see being gay as a viable one to take.
Heterosexuals and homosexuals tend to forget there are multiple elements to attraction – (at least) sexual attraction and romantic attraction. The asexual community refers to Pickup’s attraction as “gay romantic.” Things like, “I need the identifying, affectionate, affirming thing”, “I still need and long to be with men, especially those who I admire for their physical acheivement and independent attitude” and ” I realize all I want is to BOND with another guy who is similar to me . . . When I get that, I feel whole, loved, connected to myself and to my strong brother” can be completely non-sexual, but they are extremely romantic. I disagree with Dave Rattigan here that this must be homo-erotic. I have felt feelings very similar to this (minus the muscles obsession) yet not the least bit interested in sex of any type. (I am not ex-gay, BTW.)
I admire Pickup for his honesty. It would be tempting for an ex-gay to repress these feelings in an effort to look more straight.
What is baffling is that Pickup is (by his description) continuing his need to receive masculinity and believing this is a good thing. He’s only exchanged the mode of reception from sex to romantic things like affection, affirmation, and pictures (” I’ll even send the obligatory pic, and it would be cool if you would do the same.”) I thought Exodus was all about getting masculinity from God or your father and not through other men?
again they try to conflate the issues of masculinity and homosexuality. We’ve all met butch gay men and feminine straight men (Prince, anyone?). Masculinity issues and sexuality issues run parallel but they are not the same thing.
Masculinity is not a gift from your Dad. You don’t have to be taught it, and you certainly don’t need lessons in it. Placing it in other people’s hands as something you can gain or lose is simplistic and ridiculous. It comes from within. Placing it into someone else’s domain is insecure and irresponsible. Basically saying “oh I don’t feel masculine because nobody ever taught it to me.” it’s not something you learn, it’s something you are, and the first step is accepting who you are.
Either got it, or ya don’t.
This is all to me just a rationalization of placing unrealistic and artifical construction on gender and orientation.
It’s been a HUGE mistake and the domain of the most influential religions. And they’ve never been right about that because there is precious little respect for INDIVIDUALS, let alone respect for a distinct minority of people who ARE the same way. Regardless of culture.
Does it not occur to ex gays or those who claim they no longer have those attractions WHY homosexuality transcends what they BELIEVE culturally? Or how different cultures interpret what is masculine?
Sometimes it’s ‘tempting’ to smack one of these guys in the head and go DUH!
We’re either gay or not, but might have some variance if the right person came along to speculate on , if not pounce on.
Our attractions can be mild or intense. And it’s the intense ones that let us know if we is or ain’t.
C’MON, who does this guy think he’s kidding? I know some gay guys that a certain woman makes them speculate…hmmmm ‘maybe!’
Same for some straight guys, there is that ONE other guy that makes them think…hmmmm….
How many of us have friends that have speculated…”if I were GAY….then I’d be all over so and so?”
Men are funny that way and so are some women, but we shouldn’t be surprised by one another and we wouldn’t be if the ex gay industry wasn’t distorting the clearer picture with their chumming the waters.
The ex gay industry is ALL about exploitation and control. Period.
And after a fashion sound ludicrous and misguided.
Gay folks unashamed and forthright about who and what they are is not threat to anyone but the ex gay industry.
And so what if they are? What does that industry REALLY have to offer anyone but stale and oft tread information?
What would be refreshing is if they’d shut up already and quit trying to make men think men are ONLY one way and can’t have any variations of themselves.
Men will come in as many varieties as flowers in a garden, and so will women. If we didn’t, BORING is what we’d all be with each other.
As a matter of fact, I’m suicidally bored with the ex gay message. I LOVE men, I think men….gay, straight are great without the interference of an organziation that wants to make them as boring as their message is.
Ex gays just scream “TRYING TOO HARD!” on something that should come as easily to anyone as falling over a stump.
Eventually, ex gays become caricatures of what their idea of straightness is and a straight person paying attention could read it a mile off.
You know, the difference between genuine and knock off.
Like that.
There is nothing more attactive, whatever your gender or orientation, than honesty, being who you are and giving a person every opportunity to know the real you.
Security in oneself is VERY appealing….
Why doesn’t the ex gay industry get a fuc**ing clue on THAT?!
This is getting interesting. And YC just wants to subscribe to this commentary. Long live Regan DuCasse!
What is 18a?
Well, it’s a bodybuilder site so I’m guessing arms (biceps)?
You know, I may find women beautiful, but I am NOT interesting in turning my friendships with women into anything sexual. Now, with men, that is a little different. If you are still tempted to have sex with men, you ain’t hetero!
One point that I don’t think anyone has brought up yet is this:
Why can he only gain “masculine affirmation” from attractive men? Funny … I guess you can’t get that from ugly masculine men.
Good point Jake.
My concern here is that you have someone who has some unresolved issues regarding his own masculinity and sexuality projecting his experience and issues onto the whole universe in yet another example of the ego run amok. The danger here is that the people he attracts will be emotionally vulnerable. It not hard to see see a potential trainwreck when appropriate life coach-client boundaries are crossed.
Pickup may deny there’s homoeroticism here, but it sticks out like a sore thumb to everyone else.
It’s kinda like if a STRAIGHT man said, “I’m not looking for sex, I just want to have an intimate bond with Playboy Bunnies”.
Poor David Pickup. He’s not ex-gay, he’s just a frustrated sex-less gay guy with a muscle fetish that has convinced himself that he’s no longer gay.
Yeah, he has masculinity issues that couldn’t be filled by sex with masculine men. But instead of going for sex-less muscle worship, he should have gone into therapy to see if he couldn’t break the objectifying of big guys as sex objects only and find a way to choose love over muscles. I’ll bet there is some average-size not-freakishly-masculine guy out there that would make him a very good husband.
Yuki…love you back, girlfriend!
I’ve been on a car trip with Timothy, and I think he’s handsome and a serious hottie.
It’s cause he’s brainy that adds to the hotness. But I digress.
Sometimes a woman really wants to be able to take a car trip with a male hottie friend that doesn’t have another agenda.
Being that I’m a gym rat type myself, most of my friends have been men of all backgrounds.
I think it’s so sad that facades get put up on any level.
Delusion doesn’t help matters, and perhaps examining how deeply that delusion can go is worth discussing at length.
Whether I’m talking to someone who is a potential love interest or someone who is struggling with dating, whatever their background, the usual complaint seems to be lack of communication forthright enough to build strong trust.
Among us mature folks, you’d think those days would be behind us. In a way, I think the ex gay thing arrests emotional maturity because there is WAY to much emphasis put on approval FROM the ex gay industry or heterosexuals at large. Almost the way a child tries to please their parent.
Maybe that’s another way ex gays can be an inadvertant turnoff to folks who have their act together.
Ex gays are still trying to and are at risk of perpetually never getting there.
Timothy:
I’m wondering where you consider the boundry is between a fetish and a personal preference. I, for example, love big hairy muscle guys, but I’m not exclusively attracted to them. However, if I could choose just one guy in the world for a final fling, it would probably not be a skinny nerd or someone obese.
Mark,
The difference is between being attracted to a man with muscles and being attracted to big muscles on a man.
It’s pretty clear from his ad that he assigned the trait of masculinity to big muscular bodies and cared very little about the other attributes of the guy’s personality. He was turned on by sex with masculinity, but not necessarily the man.
Mark, that’s easy, a fetish is an object or attribute you literally cannot have sex without. Remove that object or attribute and the idea of sex is completely uninteresting. Someone with a leather fetish will have an excessively difficult time becoming aroused when there’s no leather nearby. That, from what I understand, is the clinical definition of fetish.
Which is why I find it hilarious when someone who really loves buying shoes says they have a “shoe fetish”.
Well, I definately have a penis fetish. 😉
Regan,
Those are some great and insightful comments.
I’m one of those guys that finds intelligence sexy. That said, I try to be ‘sexy’ too.
So, people like David Pickup just don’t appeal to me, even if they are good looking. They are putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable.
Regan,
Thanks so much!! 🙂
I know I keep saying it, but we do need to grab coffee and catch up soon.
Sounds to me like he’s getting older and his sex drive is going down, therefore he is a bitter queen (and yes, he’s a big ol’ queen for sure) who is trying to distort views of homosexuality to satisfy his own unhappiness and insecurities. The whole MASCULINITY is really silly. I have know straight and obviously gay men who are slightly effeminate and vice versa. It is always the biggest sissies like Graves and Pickup who are the most sissyphobic.