In March 1994, according to this second-hand source, a Santa Rosa, Calif., gay periodical called We The People published an article written by someone named Dennis Anderson.
The article profiled ex-exgay Tom Ottosen, who alleged that he heard Love In Action Director John Smid say this:
I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery.
This shocking quotation has been reprinted numerous times, perhaps most prominently in the January/February 1997 issue of the gay Christian magazine Whosoever.org. Various blogs currently covering the so-called “kidnapping” of a youth by Love In Action have repeated the quotation without stating its source.
But according to an article at the Independent Gay Forum, Smid denies ever saying that. And a broad Google search turns up nothing from, or about, Ottosen since 1998 — seven years ago.
Given the allegation’s origin in just one individual, I am skeptical that the incident occurred exactly as Ottosen claims. Nevertheless, any information substantiating or refuting Ottosen’s allegation would be most welcome.
I sent a message to the editor of We the People requesting more information on the authenticity of the quote.
Mike, just to make it perfectly clear we’re not presenting this quote as fact how about doing something like this”
[Note: This quote has not been verified]
quote here
[Note: This quote has not been verified]
There are a lot of stupid people in the world they seem to be on the internet in disproportionate numbers. The nature of pull quotes is oftentimes that will be the only part of an article people read hence my argument you should be more clear we’re not presenting the quote as verified yet.
haha “misquoted” How about complete and total fabrication?
Question: How do you verify a quote that was uttered in the presence of only two people? What is it about this quote that you regard as fantastic? You’ve never heard fundamentalists talking this way, have you?
AIR, there is a commentary on this somewhere. Maybe Rembrant Trulove (?). In the commentary, the remark is linked to a string of suicides alleged commited by former LIA people. I shall do some searching on this. In the meantime, check out Wayne Besen and Yahoogroup USAQueers to see if they have any information. It sticks in my mind that I have read several reasonably informed commentaries on this subject.
Michael Ditto,
Thanks — I did the same.
— Mike
I have no idea whether Smid actually said what Ottosen quoted him as having said (apparently no tape recorder, so who knows?), but I will relate something that I figured out from when I was posting on FreeRepublic.com seven or eight years ago.
More than a few of the people there referred to the “gay lifestyle” as a “death style.” It took me a while, but I finally figured out that what they were referring to didn’t have anything to do with HIV/AIDS. It was the belief that homosex would result in the end of one’s gene stream. I’m not joking. But apparently, the posters hadn’t heard of IVF (in vitro fertilization). This was in the late 1990s.
Some would argue, Regan, that your freedom of speech is costing exgay kids (and confused nongay kids) their lives.
Since when do your freedoms trump anyone else’s freedoms?
If denying people freedom of speech, based on someone else’s hurt feelings, is what you want, then be prepared to suffer the same loss of freedom.
Starting right now.
I received the following in an e-mail from the editor:
So the quote is verified (i.e. it hasn’t been altered since it was gathered), and should be given as much weight as any second-hand quote–not as much as a first-hand quote, but not discounted either. Nixon denied saying the things Deep Throat and other sources said he said, until the tapes came out and confirmed the stories.
Looking at this, what I find is the only exgay group to which the encouraging suicide charge is ever directed is LIA. There is no general thread of gay discourse that runs to ‘exgay groulps encourage suicide if you can’t change’. The charge is not a canard, nor is it a widespread characterization of exgay groups. Rather it is a specific charge directed at LIA alone. No other exgay group has anything like it attached to its reputation.
I can recall reading years ago, before the internet, an article in which a string of suicides were reported on. The common thread here was that all the vicitims had an alleged connection to LIA. Shortly after this article appeared, LIA left California for Tennessee. Now this may be just malicious rumor, or fomenting of strife. But it is clear that LIA has had this sort of story told about it for a long time.
Memory is what I am drawing on. It seems to me that some gay Christian, with an improbable but wonderous Southern style name, something like Rembrandt Trulove, has also gone into this.
I suspect that more probing might bring something to light here.
I did post some preliminary links on what I could find, but my post went into approval limbo.
Hi DaleaThe guy is Rembert Truluck (oh you Americans and your crazy names! Makes me think of the Kenny Everett character, Brother Lee Love…) He’s been running a site for years. I have directed quite a few parents to his writings, if they are struggling to come to grips with having a gay child and an anti-gay religious background.https://www.truluck.com/
My preliminary research through LexisNexis indicates that LIA may have been kicked out of California for practicing psychotherapy without a license.
Other groups that were targets of legal action in California under the same rule set simply had all new participants sign clear disclaimers saying “this is not therapy” and requiring a doctor’s permission to participate if they were on any kind of prescription drug or in any kind of therapeutic program.
MichaelThe application for LIA has, for the 7 or 8 years I’ve been re-visiting and downloading their materials, long had specific questions about alerting them to mental health issues etc.(Quite apart from the “Penetrating Sex” question: something I assume is rather more involved than mere penetrative sex…)https://www.loveinaction.org/media/documents/Source/Application.pdfCareful, it’s a doozy of a 33 pages long… aaah, the fine print…
Thank you for ferreting and fleshing this out the way you have. It is very important that we correctly attribute and quote everybody on all sides of this issue. I got caught in commenting on this thinking it was double-sourced, when in fact it now appears from the work you and others have done that these are all unattributed reflections of the same original article.
While the quote is consistent with the considerable shame-based beliefs that appear to be used to motivate Love In Action clients, a single-sourced second-hand quote has little journalistic value.
To Michael Airhart re Free Speech
In LIA’s case, the program’s staff is accountable beyond what people are simple human interactions. They purport to be professionals who’ve taken on professional responsibilty for their clients and are thus held to a commensurately higher standard — one at which they are obviously failing miserably at.
Because they have a history of such failure with catastrophic results, appropriate accountability ought to include being held liable for payment for therapy to counteract the damage they’ve caused, wrongful death findings and consequences, revocation of any personally held professional licences, and permanent closure of their facilities with the proceeds going to pay damages to former clients and those they’ve defamed.
One more thing…
I don’t know about Tennessee but, in many jurisdictions, Rev. Smid could be held criminally liable for that statement if any death or injury resulted from it.
It would only take a courageous prosecutor…
I saw the quote in question several years ago in a different source. The article appeared elsewhere originally I think. I would have it on my computer someplace but the computer is in NZ and I am in Europe until August. But I remember the article. More importantly this is not the first time this issue has arisen with Love in Action. One young man did commit suicide with exactly the type of reasoning expressed in the quote. Whether Schmid made it or not it certainly was an idea that some in LIA had. At the time LIA was in San Rafael, CA. The young man, named Jack left a suicide note which I had in my possession and which I copied the text from. Here are his precise words.
“TO: Those left with the question, why did he do it?
“I loved life and all that it had to offer to me each day.
“I loved my job and my clients.
“I loved my friends and thank God for each one of them.
“I loved my little house and would not have wanted to live anywhere else.
“All this looks like the perfect life. Yet, I must not let this shadow the problem that I have in my life. At one time, not to long ago, that was all that really mattered in my life. What pleased me and how it affected me. Now that I have turned my life over to the Lord and the changes came one by one, the above statements mean much more to me. I am pleased that I can say those statements with all the truth and honesty that is within me.
“However, to make this short, I must confess that there were things in my life that I could not gain control, no matter how much I prayed and tried to avoid the temptation, I continually failed.
“It is this constant failure that has made me make the decision to terminate my life here on earth. I do this with the complete understanding that life is not mine to take. I know that it is against the teachings of our Creator. No man is without sin, this I realise. I will cleanse myself of all sin as taught to me by His word. Yet, I must face my Lord with the sin of murder. I believe that Jesus died and paid the price for that sin too. I know that I shall have everlasting life with Him by departing this world now, no matter how much I love it, my friends, my family. If I remain it could possibly allow the devil the opportunity to lead me away from the Lord. I love life, but my love for the Lord is so much greater, the choice is simple.
“I am not asking you to sanction my actions. That is not the purpose of my writing this at all. It is for the express purpose of allowing each one who will read this to know how I weighed things in my own mind. I don’t want you to think that, ‘I alone,’ should have been the perfect person, without sin. That would be ridiculous! It is the continuing lack of strength and/or obedience and/or will power to cast aside certain sins. To continually go before God and ask forgiveness and make promises you know you can’t keep is more than I can take. I feel it is making a mockery of God and all He stands for in my life.
“Please know that I am extremely happy to be going to the Lord. He knows my heart and knows how much I love life and and all that it has to offer. But, He knows that I love Him more. That is why I believe that I will be with Him in Paradise.
“I regret if I bring sorrow to those that are left behind. If you get your hearts in tune with the word of God you will be as happy about my ‘transfer’ as I am. I also hope that this answers sufficiently the question, why?
“May God Have Mercy On My Soul.
“A Brother & A Friend.”
The Tom Ottosen quote is ABSOLUTELY true. Why do I know this? – because I was in the same year program as Tom and we were friends post the program in the early 90s. I was in the ’93 “1st year” program, and he was doing the “2nd year program.” He told me what Smid said as we were driving over the Golden Gate Bridge heading back to Marin where we were living. I was driving, and he told me what Smid said. I remember responding with, “Are you serious? Did Smid really say that?” It stunned me but didn’t surprise me. He said yes, and then I remember following up with him by saying “Why didn’t you wait until we got off the bridge?” Funny how you remember certain things…I think I said that because I was so livid, I wanted to jump out the car and scream my head off.
I repeat…Tom was in the program and out of the program approximately the same time…we were friends…John Smid ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT DOUBT said that to Tom. It still breaks my heart when I think about it.
I remember him talking a lot about Lea Brown, the counselor he found at Spectrum.
Also, it isn’t mentioned in the article, but Tom also briefly shopped around for a gun…that’s how desperate he was folks!
Tom’s story was not only in the Sonoma County gay paper, but was also in a mainstream Marin county paper called the Pacific Sun, that had John Smid on the cover, with a balding head by the way…he didn’t always have hair…and no I’m not making that up…that too is the truth.
Tom is originally a Montana boy…raised in a rural area. I met his Mom when she came out to visit. He is soft spoken, a gentlemen, very bright, warm, and solid. He is TOTALLY honest. Trust me when I tell you that this was no made up story. This meeting and the comments did in fact happen.
I wish I had kept a copy of the Pacific Sun spread done on Smid and LIA, before they moved to the Bible Belt…but honestly I didn’t think it would be around this long…unreal.
I’m not really an activist, but I feel it may be time.
If anyone wants to call me, 415-847-1402
Peace.
Jon Gennaro
Hey Jon, and thank-you for taking the time.I’m not about to start making international phone calls 🙂 but I hope someone local does call you. If nothing else, having all this properly on the record is important for the future.best wishes
Clients for “reparative therapy” obviously include bisexuals as well as gays. For bi’s there may be some chance of walling off their gayness and evolving their hetero side. Not so for gays.
Spoken before a group that included both bi’s and gays, Smid’s statement about suicide became a Draconian filter: bisexuals have hope, gays are hopeless and should kill themselves.
In this context, his statement was morally and perhaps legally criminal.
Jon,
I hope you don’t mind.. but I forwarded this site to the associate news editor for Advocate Magazine with the suggestion that he call you.
Your story is really very important because it is the second person confirmation of a statement so horrifying that a lot of press is avoiding it without a second source. The fact that you can confirm it at the time it occured is amazing.
JON:
I encourage you to become that activist you speak of and accept TIMOTHY’S gesture of forwarding your post to The Advocate. What a wonderful position this puts you in to make a difference. I am from Nashville,Tennessee and just being surrounded by the huge number of right wing conservative republicans that vote and believe what they hear in the pulpit, I have heard of the “successes” of LIA since they moved here. I plan to send a news tip to the local newspaper that will probably run a feature story. I will be watching this site for other news!
Just for the record (and an update for Jon)I have received an email from both Tom Ottosen and Lea Brown — they still very much alive and kicking. Lea has moved on from Spectrun and, remarkably, both have kept contact over the past 11 years.Apart from the 1994 articles that Jon mentioned, Tom has chosen to keep his distance from the ex-gay controversy. Given all that Jon described, I can appreciate that.That’s all!
I can’t say that John said that exact quote. However, I was in the Love in Action program in 1994 (the year the article came out) and I can tell you that those sentiments were exactly what they taught. We were manipulated, pressured and shamed into not leaving the program. In any given week, a couple guys would want to leave. The rest would circle them and “pray” for them to not “give up” and “surrender to Satan” by leaving the ministry. Many times he did say the last part of that quote about physical death not being worse than spiritual death. I have no problem believing that at one time he may have added the beginning part about suicide. These people would tell you that if you left or gave in to your “homosexual” feelings that you would forever be seperated from God and most likely die of AIDS. The methods they used on vulnerable people is nothing less than cult-like. I’m happy to say that after leaving there I came out and have found a deeper relationship with God than I ever thought possible and have been so much happier than I ever was during that “struggling” phase of my life.
I also wanted to add something from an above post. Yes, John Smid has MUCH more hair now than he did back then. When the “ex-gay” boom hit in the mid 90’s… the ads in all the papers… suddenly he was being invited and paid to speak in all sorts of Fundamentalist churches and conferences. He got hair plugs soon after that, bought a Jaguar and dyed his hair blonde. Notice in the rules for LIA’s program in Memphis that the kids are not allowed to dye their hair and must return it to their natural color. Yet, Smiddy is up there in all the press with his transplanted, dyed, golden locks. After leaving the program I used to give John the benefit of the doubt and thought he was just a sincerely misguided person. After the plugs and Jag, I knew he was in it for something else.
pt90048@aol.com
No one on this thread has mentioned the interview with John Smid in Family and Friends that was posted on this site awhile back, but Smid addresses the quote there.
He says it “was a misrepresentation and it was taken out of context” and goes on to say, “I remember the context of what I said was, ‘It would almost be better if you weren’t alive than to return back to the life that you have struggled so much to leave.'”
He concludes, in part, “And so, that was taken out of context because I know that the suicide word is a buzz word and I truly believe the author of that article embellished and was trying to get a reaction by using that statement.”
Reading the passage a second time, I’m honestly not sure whether Smid is denying having used the specific word “suicide” or admitting to it when he calls it a “buzzword”. At any rate, he concedes that the Ottosen quote is true in substance. The full interview is at
https://exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2005/07/love_in_actions_1.html
Mikayla at August 6, 2005 07:47 PM
Smid is quibbling with words. Recognize quibbling for what it is.
I was the author of that specific article in We The People on Tom Ottosen.
Tom later did in fact state to me that the quote he used and I therefore reported was as best as he remembered it.