Ex-gay group Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (JONAH), despite their heavy involvement with Christian organizations, claim to be a viable alternative for Jews who see conflict between their sexual orientation and the Torah. They claim to take a Torah guided approach to the matter, and have several articles on their site to support this view. But another option for frum (observant; religious) Jews who are dealing with their homosexuality is to – well, to stay gay. The Gay and Lesbian Yeshiva Day School Alumni Association (GLYDSA) shows us how.
Christians are familiar with the holiness code followed by Jews. It is referred to asâThe Lawâ by Jesus and Paul. Verses like Leviticus 18:22 are often cited to validate bigotry and hate against gays. However, âThe Lawâ is not simply the first five books of the Bible (the Torah). Jews have TWO laws: the written Torah, and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah, passed down from generation to generation since the National Revelation at Mt. Sinai, is the interpretation of the Written Law, which has since been written down. This vast collection of literature consists of the Talmud (âLearningâ) and the Midrash (âInterpretationâ).
The Oral Torah and written Torah are inseparable and rely on each other to communicate what is collectively called Halakha (lit. âthe Path,â Jewish Law). Judaism insists that the Scriptures cannot simply be taken at literal face value. In the Oral Torah, rabbis give their point of view and interpretation of scripture, often disagreeing with one another. However, a dissenting argument is not automatically considered heretical. As a result, debate over the meaning of scripture is intrinsic to Judaism, allowing for much flexibility in the faith without immediately causing a schism.
One example of how the Oral Torah dramatically changes the literal reading of the Law:
The phrase âAn eye for an eye, a tooth for a toothâ (Exodus 21:22-27) is defined by the oral tradition to imply monetary compensation (Bava Kamma, 84a). The Torah requires penalties be universally applicable, which means if the phrase were taken literally, blind people could not take part. In addition, Leviticus 19:18 prohibits personal retribution. Therefore, the entire commandment is intended to ensure the equality and fairness of punishment, not to condone an equal vengence.
Why is this important? Because anti-gay Christians use verses from the Bible that they share with Jews to condemn homosexuality â and yet there are many gay Jews in the world. GLYDSA does a wonderful job explaining how one can be an observant, orthodox Jew while embracing who you are. Their FAQ page is a wonderful resource for those with scriptural questions regarding homosexuality.
Emily K,
this is how Orthodox Christianity operates as well. There are many layers to scripture, not just what is on the surface.
I am glad you give a non-Christian perspective on the ex-gay issue as it is so easy for myself as a Christian to focus on the Christian aspect of it and forget that there are those of other faiths who have the same, if not even harder struggles than my own.
A friend of mine in our church choir’s partner is Jewish. He usually sits outside in the church yard while his partner is inside participating in the mass. He goes in every now and then to hear his partner sing, but then goes back outside for anything else. The mass is in English and is at 10:00 am. I usually translate for the priest at 12:30 pm mass (the Spanish mass – the priest doesn’t speak Spanish) but like to get there at the church in time for coffee hour immediately after the 10 o clock service. So sometimes I meet up with him and we talk. (His name is Alan by the way and we always joke about forgetting each other’s name). Anyways, it is always very ackward for him to talk about being Jewish and being gay. I brought it up one time and knew right away it was not a subject he wanted to discuss. So we never do. But I would like to give him the web address to the FAQ page you mentioned. I’ll try to be sensitive about it, but it has a lot of information that might help him out. It’s the first pro-gay website I’ve seen dedicated to the Jewish community, so thank you for sharing it.
Alan, other pro-gay Jewish sites are http://www.nehirim.org, http://www.glbtjews.org, and http://www.jewishmosaic.org. A wonderful links page is provided by the World Congress of GLBT Jews that has a list of many gay Jewish organizations. OR, you could just do a gay-gle search for “Jewish.” Please share these with the other Alan.
About the FAQ page, I think it is important what is said about what to say to people who hate homosexuals:
Most often feelings of hate are based on ignorance, misunderstanding, and fear of the unknown. And it may not be so much “hate” as disapproval of certain conduct. Attitudes often change with education, and after meeting gay people and understanding halacha, most people will accept the fact that a person is gay. It may also help to remind them that Hillel said: Ve-al tadin et chavercha ad she-tagia li-mkomo (Pirke Avos 2:5) (Do not judge your fellow until you are in his place. Ethics of the Fathers 2:5).
đ again, thanks Emily K
two resources that also help explain some of the Orthodox issues in terms the non-Orthodox (and non-Jewish) reader/viewer can understand (blurbs taken from the GLSYDA site, but I, a non-Jew, have used these two, and can recommend both highly):
Trembling Before G-d, the groundbreaking feature documentary film by Sandi Simcha DuBowski about Orthodox gay and lesbian Jews. The film shatters assumptions about faith, sexuality, and religious fundamentalism. Built around intimately-told personal stories of Hasidic and Orthodox Jews who are gay or lesbian, the film portrays a group of people who face a profound dilemma — how to reconcile their passionate love of Judaism and the Divine with the drastic Biblical prohibitions that forbid homosexuality.
Wrestling With God and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition, by Rabbi Steven Greenberg (Univ. of Wisconsin Press: 2004). This book is “the product of Rabbi Greenberg’s ten-year struggle to reconcile his two warring identities. In this compelling and groundbreaking work, Greenberg challenges long held assumptions of scriptural interpretation and religious identity as he marks a path that is both responsible to human realities and deeply committed to God and Torah.” (Quoted from the book jacket.)
I agree that GLYDSA is a good resource for Orthodox GLB people. In 2003, I was the guest speaker at one of their meetings. I’m a former gay activist, writer, and entrepreneur who stopped having gay sex when I started following Jewish law. The meeting (which I’m told was one of their most heavily attended) was lively, and opinions were split, although most disagreed with my stance.
Trembling Before G-d is a highly problematic film. Several of the rabbis interviewed have said their words were twisted and taken out of context to imply they agreed with the film’s agenda, which is against Orthodox Judaism’s stance that same-sex relations are sinful. The director told me that he simply doesn’t believe that any gay people exist who live celibate lives for any length of time, or happily marry an opposite-sex person. I know many people who have taken one or the other of those approaches, which are the only legitimate approaches according to virtually every Orthodox rabbi in the world. Several of the “Orthodox” Jews in the film are not really Orthodox (I know – I had a date with one on a Friday night before I become religious).
And Wrestling With G-d and Men is simply a joke. It has been thoroughly rejected as a non-Orthodox book by virtually every serious Orthodox Jew who has read it, including the decidedly left-of-Orthodox-center Rabbi Asher Lopatin of Chicago.
If someone wants to delude themselves that Orthodoxy has no preference for opposite-sex love, sex, and marriage, go ahead and look at the documentary and book referenced above. A better read, though, would be Chaim Rapaport’s wise, compassionate, and thoroughly researched Judaism and Homosexuality: an Authentic Orthodox View.
There are also two useful listservs: Orthogays and Frumgays.
As for JONAH, I do not recommend it. It is certainly not Torah-true. I could go on, but this message is already pretty long.
Ah, Mr. Benkof. I was wondering when you would finally show up.
Now, it’s great that you lead a religious life that you find righteous and fulfilling. However, I doubt that some of the reasons you find homosexuality incompatible with Jewish life are valid to many frum, Jewish gays. For example, in a J. article, you were quoted as saying:
Now, I don’t know about you, but I doubt that Shabbos-keeping gay Jews are out “looking for sex” on Friday nights. And I would bet that many would be too preoccupied saying Havdalah to go out on Saturday nights, either.
Actually, I would say a good amount of the gay XGW readers and contributers probably don’t go “out looking for sex every night.” I say this because the readership here tends to lean on the conservative side, with regard to matters such as those. I express my grief that this is the lifestyle you lived as a gay man – it sounds promiscuous and unfulfilling. That’s not the “gay lifestyle” I’M familiar with.
I am very glad to see that you refuse to let people call you “ex-gay” and that you are a confessed bisexual that is choosing to live your homosexual side celibately. I think this can be a healthy choice, and you are being absolutely honest about who you are. This is what we need from ex-gay groups, instead of blurred, convoluted explanations about “change.” You are afforded the luxury of bisexuality. That is to your advantage, since in the J. article you wanted to have a wife and kids. I hope you were able to achieve this.
Your wikipedia page says you are an adamant opponent of equal marriage rights for same sex couples. Does it make you feel more righteous to actively impede on the families of those who are neither Orthodox Jewish, nor religious at all? Or do you simply carry this opinion without lobbying for it? A particularly conservative, observant Jewish fellow was once in a friendly debate with me, and although we did not agree, he admitted that he found the similarities in the way gay men and women are treated today (as diseased, second-class beings trying to destroy society) with how Jews were treated in Fascist Europe slightly unnerving.
Actually Mr. Benkof, I am especially interested to hear, from an Orthodox perspective, why this is the case.
Emily-
Please call me David.
I know you are frustrated with the JONAH directors for their non-response to your questions, but seeing your response to me I can understand their impulse – which I share – to blow you off for your decision not to play by the norms of respectful adult conversation. I will lay out what you did that was unreasonable, and I will answer your questions, but if I see another post like this first one from you, I will simply ignore it.
In response to a thoughtful, respectful post, some of which you agree with, some of which you don’t, you dredged up a 5-year-old quote in which I was sharing my personal experience about how I came to Orthodox Judaism. You never once quoted me (because no such quote exists) saying Jews should follow the Torah because homosexuals are promiscuous. But that wasn’t really the point, was it? Faced with a fellow Jew who disagrees with your politics but whom you cannot dismiss as an “ex-gay” advocate of “change,” you resort to an ad hominem attack on me as, basically, a former slut. It has as much relevance to my post as my opinion that you’re a lousy artist (if I had that opinion) would have to your post. It’s beneath you. Don’t do it again.
As for same-sex marriage, Jewish texts make it clear that our tradition opposes not only kiddushin (religious marriage) between two Jews of the same sex, but civil marriages between same-sex individuals of any religion. You no doubt don’t like that, and if you choose to affiliate with one of the streams of Judaism that disregards the authority of Jewish texts, I can respect that (I have many friends who are non-Orthodox.) But I am Orthodox, and I believe, with good evidence, that G-d strongly opposes same-sex marriage. I am bound to behave in a way that reflects my belief system, as you are. (It just so happens that I also find many non-religious arguments for the supremacy of opposite-sex relationships in government policy to be convincing, mostly because I’m especially concerned about the welfare of children.)
I also believe it is the responsibility of people of faith to to vote, and lobby, in ways consistent with their beliefs. A full description of my feelings on this matter was published in the San Francisco Chronicle in January 2004 (opposite a pro-SSM piece by Carole Migden) and can be found at https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/18/EDGJP4B81B1.DTL
As for your ludicrous, truly offensive comment that gays in America are somehow treated like Jews in fascist Europe, you should know that I happen to be an expert in the subject. I have published a book and dozens of columns on gay and lesbian history, have a master’s degree in modern Jewish history from Stanford (focusing on Holocaust), and these days I am a Ph.D. candidate in American Jewish history at NYU.
Please list three examples of ways in which American gays and lesbians are treated as “diseased, second-class beings trying to destroy society” particularly as compared to the anti-Jewish campaigns in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. This should be fun. (Or if you prefer to withdraw the analogy and admit your error, I promise not to remind you that you made such a ridiculous claim.)
As for explaining the ways in which JONAH fails to behave as a Torah-true organization, I think I’ll hold on to that for now as a carrot. If you can respond to this post in a respectful manner – even if you disagree with everything I say and demolish my arguments with witty, incisive, deadly accuracy – my next post will share my thoughts as an Orthodox Jew on JONAH.
Emily-
One more thing. You claim that I “find homosexuality incompatible with Jewish life.” Is that your surmise of what I believe? I don’t believe I ever said that, although I’ve said a lot of things and maybe I don’t remember. Are you basing your comment on some quote of mine? Which one?
Gay sex is incompatible with Jewish life. Male-male partnerships (although not necessarily female-female partnerships) are incompatible with Jewish life. Same-sex marriage is incompatible with Jewish life. Gay synagogues are incompatible with Jewish life.
But homosexuality? I see no evidence that a person cannot be gay or lesbian and live a fully observant life. In fact, I know several who do. Some Orthodox Jews would like to reject such people anyway, but I challenge them to show me the text that gives them the authority to do so.
Never mind. I’m not going to justify a comment like that by continuing the discussion.
David Benkof:
I am not Jewish so pardon any ignorance on my part of the Jewish faith, but I am curious about a few things.
You mentioned that you were involved in homosexual intercourse until you came to Orthodox Judaism. Can you please explain how you were able to do that knowing full well that you had broken the Torah according to Orthodox Jewish interpretation? Does not the Torah specify death as your punishment? How were you able to go around the Jewish law in that manner?
As for what you said to Emily:
I can’t speak for Emily, but in general, treatment of unwanteds have similarities in all part of the world and in all parts of history. The words may be altered somewhat, the treatment maybe more extreme or less, but the intentions and the purpose are pretty well constant. If you were to take the words of the Nazi propaganda and compare it to what was written and said about Native Americans and African-Americans in early America you would find a striking similarity. In fact, it is often said Hitler modeled his treatment of the Jews after the manner in which Americans treated Native Americans. Compare the rhetoric of Nazism to modern-day anti-gay rhetoric and again there is a striking similarity. Not exact, of course, but very similar. A most recent example is posted on this blog:
Last week, Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council (FRC) made the following comments during an interview:
I would much prefer to export homosexuals from the United States than to import them into the United States, because we believe that homosexuality is destructive to society.
Now, granted, this man does not have the power or position Hitler had, and our country does not “export” homosexuals on a nation scale, but on a local level, gays are exported out of their family’s homes, their communities, their schools, their churches. The means to which Hitler was able to accomplish against the Jews (and other unwanteds) because of his power are far greater than what is being carried out against gays and lesbians in the US, but the intention and purpose and the rhetoric are of the same magnitude. The missing ingredient in the US for the anti-gay coalition (for lack of a better word) is the power to excute what they intend and wish to do.
Emily,
Mr. Benhof isn’t your father, is he? Because my dad is probably the only person I’d let speak to me in such a condescending didactic manner.
I have to say you are more mature in your response than I probably would have been.
Emily-
As I indicated, I am certainly comfortable not having a dialogue with you. But since your response is so interesting, I thought I’d take this opportunity to have a monologue.
To quote yourself in responding to a similar reaction by JONAH’s leadership, “This response only leads me to believe that JONAH (Emily?) doesnât care about the facts at all.” I responded to an E-mail of yours, documenting how you had made an irrelevant, arguably homophobic ad hominem attack against me, and claimed that I held a point of view (that homosexuality is incompatible with Jewish life) that as far as I can tell you made up out of thin air. You also made a historical analogy that is both ridiculous and offensive.
I was willing to continue the dialogue, as long as you would cease fighting below the belt (such as ad hominem attacks and lying about what your opponent believes). I also asked you some questions (as you did JONAH), which you have refused to answer (as did JONAH).
Of course, I know what’s going on. You have made a metier out of arguing with opponents of the celebration of homosexuality who have a very weak hand. They claim, with little evidence, that homosexuality can be changed through therapy and prayer. A lot of them are not very smart. (The only one I am truly impressed with is Dr. Warren Throckmorton, and looking around this site I can see I’m not alone.) Now, you’re faced with someone with a very strong hand. I know far more than you do about gay and Jewish history – in fact, it’s my life’s work. I am part of an authentic religious tradition with strong opinions about the nature of sexuality and the family, but I am not homophobic. You know that if you would debate me, for the first time you would not come out looking so good. So you refuse to do so.
I am comfortable letting the readers of this site decide for themselves which one of us is out of order and being unreasonable.
To claim that gays in America are currently treated similarly to the Jews in Nazi Germany is as insupportable as it is to claim that gays can be “cured” through therapy and prayer. My joining this forum has thus turned you, strategy-wise, into an ex-gay advocate. It’s not surprising you would rather avoid talking to me and go back to the weak minds you’re used to demolishing.
I am quite interested in questions and reactions other participants in this forum have with regards to homosexuality and Orthodox Judaism. People can also reach me privately at my name (one word)@aol.com. (I’m not typing in my name to avoid being spammed.)
-David Benkof
David Benkof:
Is arrogance a sin in Orthodox Judaism? Because if you were an Orthodox Christian you’d be in the confession booth 24/7.
I bed to differ. There are similarities. What the Nazi party did is quite similiar to many tactics used against the gay population in America today. And it is similar to what civilizations have done throughout history. We as gay Americans as a whole group have yet to experience how far hatred can go, but we have experienced it on an individual scale. The basic ploy is to dehumanize “the enemy;” blame all the economic woes on “the enemy;” blame the decline in morals on “the enemy.” Turn the enemy into a non-human entity and then broadcast your rhetoric to as many as have ears.
I am not trying to downplay the horrorible sin committed against the Jews during WWII, or for the other unwanteds like homosexuals (who, after being “liberated” by the allies were forced to continue their sentences), but to say there is NO similiarity between Nazi Germany’s anti-semitism and Conservative America’s anti-gayism is false.
Alan S.-
No need to apologize for not being an expert at things Jewish. In fact, many Jews know very little about Orthodoxy and Jewish law, and I am happy to explain and take questions from people of any faith.
The basic concept you’ll need to understand in reference to your questions is “teshuvah” – which means repentence, or more literally “return.” Judaism believes that nearly any transgression can be atoned for through teshuvah, which includes remorse, confession, and a determination not to repeat the sin. Teshuvah is the focus of Yom Kippur, the September or October Day of Atonement. A person like me, who was once non-Orthodox but becomes Orthodox is known as a baal teshuvah.
Before I became Orthodox, I used to spend money on Shabbat. I also used to have sex with men. Both area serious sins that required teshuvah. But once I repented, I was able to move on and focus on my future observance, rather than being held back by actions I once did.
As for the death penalty in the Torah, we are not Biblical Jews. We follow both the written Torah and the oral Torah. The oral Torah makes it clear that the death penalty is only in force when there is a Jewish court in a Jewish government run by Jewish law. Even so, there have to be two witnesses to the act, and a valid warning. The death penalty was carried out only rarely in Jewish history. I have never heard of a single instance in which it was used to kill someone who had had gay sex, although there might have been.
You are correct that there are parallels in Nazi rhetoric about Jews and early (and later) American rhetoric about black and Native American people. And it is true that the Nazis looked to Native American reservations as a model in devising the Nisko plan for dealing with Polish Jewry in 1939 and 1940. But I have never heard that Native Americans were a model for the campaign against German Jews before or after Kristallnacht, or for the Einsatzgruppen that slaughtered millions of Eastern European Jews, or the deportations and death camps that made up the heart of the Final Solution. If you have such evidence, I’d like to hear it. Without it, it is certainly a stretch to claim that American treatment of Native Americans was the model for the Holocaust, given that I’ve only seen evidence of a link with the relatively minor Nisko plan.
As for your comparison of Nazism and “modern-day anti-gay rhetoric,” the example you chose only underscores the weakness of your analogy. Mr. Sprigg’s comment aroused an outcry, and within a week he apologized. We have examples of such things happening with the Nazi anti-handicapped campaign, but as far as I know it never happened with Nazi anti-Jewish rhetoric or actions. And of course, as you recognize, Sprigg has no political power, unlike the Nazis. If you wish to withdraw the example, and show me another example of American anti-gay rhetoric that is parallel to Nazi anti-Jewish rhetoric, I’d be interested in hearing it.
You claim:
1) that American gays are “exported” from their families’ homes. Not parallel. I know of no instance in which a German Jew was kicked out of his or her family’s home for being Jewish.
2) that American gays and lesbians are “exported” from their communities. I was a major figure in the American gay press from 1995 to 2003, including running the gay press awards and the 2000 gay press summit. I have never heard of an American gay person being told they could no longer live in their community. Could you provide me a link or links to news stories describing such matters, so I can see if it is indeed parallel to Germans making certain towns Judenrein? Thanks.
3) that gays are kicked out of their schools, as were Jews in Nazi Europe. You’re a little warmer here. But gays being kicked out of school is not that common (do you have statistics that show otherwise?) and gays are certainly not being kicked out of *public* schools (the four military academies being the exception). In fact, many school districts and entire states (California, for example) mandate that schools teach in a gay positive manner, often to the exclusion of the point of view of the majority of the population who do not consider homosexual relationships to be the legitimate equivalent to opposite-sex marriages. Could you imagine Nazi Germany teaching about great Jews in German history, and advocating that students think of Judaism as being to complete moral equivalent of Christianity?
4) that gays are kicked out of their churches in America. Again, not parallel. There are no examples of Jews being kicked out of their synagogues by the Nazis. Also, do you want to live in a country that tells religious institutions they must accept people as members who don’t believe in their teachings? I don’t.
Finally, you say America *would* look like Nazi Germany if the anti-gay coaltion had the power to execute what they intend and wish to do. Where’s your evidence? You believe the anti-gay coaltion wishes to
1) make gays wear an identifying badge
2) be forced to live in ghettos and concentration camps
3) be put on trains to travel to death camps, where they will be gassed and cremated?
Can you understand how as a Jew who lost relatives in the Holocaust your analogy is deeply offensive to me?
Of course, if you are in possession of evidence that the anti-gay coalition would execute a Holocaust if only they had power, please give me some links and references.
Alan S.-
You ask whether the self-proclaimed “chosen people” consider arrogance a sin. What do you think? And you are a frequent poster on one of the most arrogant sites on the Web, one that routinely dismisses the genuine religious beliefs of people who hold a different point of view, with sarcastic and vile invective. I think you can handle my pointing out to Emily that she’s refusing to debate me for the same reason JONAH won’t debate her – she knows she’ll lose.
You claim that both Nazi Germany and anti-gay America “dehumanize” their enemy. I am very familiar with Nazi rhetoric making Jews in “vermin” and “rats” as well as Nazi anthropology that argued Jews were barely human. What are your examples for anti-gay America?
You also claim that in America gays are “the enemy.” You use that term four times. It is only fair that I ask you to provide four different quotes from different anti-gay figures that refer to gays as “the enemy.” I know of none.
You claim that anti-gay America blames all its economic woes on gays, just as Nazi Germany blamed all its economic woes (and its loss in World War I) on Jews. I have seen our economic woes blamed on immigrants, but never on gays. Could you provide a link to a Web site in which an anti-gay figure “blame(s) all the economic woes on ‘the enemy'”? I don’t believe a single one exists. Enlighten me.
You claim that anti-gay America is blaming the decline in morals on gay people, just as Jews were blamed (through their art and music, for example) for the decline in morals in Weimar and Nazi Germany. Well, you finally have a point. Because gay people *are* contributing heavily (although not solely responsible) for the oversexualization of the media, for example. Some gay people (I’m thinking of Howard Ashman’s Beauty and the Beast) have contributed wonderful, wholesome things to our culture. But I wouldn’t want my children watching Max Mutchnick’s Will and Grace or Darren Star’s Sex in the City. Gays have also lobbied heavily to have public school sex education teach children how to have gay sex, which I believe (and most Americans believe) is immoral. So yes, I guess there is a parallel there, although anti-gay people aren’t objecting to gays lowering the morals of the society as an excuse to scapegoat them. They (we?) object to gays lowering the morals of the society … because gays are lowering the morals of the society. If gays would act more like Howard Ashman and less like Darren Star, I guarantee you such complaints would stop.
So until you provide more evidence, you are saying anti-gay America is like Nazi Germany because each accuses its target of undermining the morals of the society. If that’s all you’re saying, I guess you’re right. But I could argue that the Michigan Womyn’s festival is like Nazi Germany for its treatment of men and transwomen, and I’d probably have a better argument. I could come up with ways Dick Cheney is like Abraham Lincoln, and ways that Barack Obama is like Adolf Hitler. But I’d only be making a cogent point if could give several examples and a thoughtful, deep comparison. You haven’t even come close.
And it wouldn’t matter much if you said America’s treatment of gays is like ancient Greece or Tokugawa Japan – or even the Nazi treatment of gays. But to compare the minor inconveniences of gay people in America (who, compared to gays in most countries over the last 150 years of gay history, have extraordinary freedom) to the systematic persecution, dehumanization, concentration, transport, and extermination of Europe’s Jews in the middle of the last century, is unbelievably offensive.
I am suprised a person who hold claims of such high education is unable to translate it into knowledge and wisdom for the facts of life in today’s world. I pity those homosexuals who are killed almost every day in the Middle East, some are looking for refuge in other countries afraid to go back with death sentences hanging on there foreheads. I sympathize with homosexuals that are arrested and became victims of brutality in Asia. Mr. Benkof had just implied their lives are worth less than the Jews who face the same violence during Nazi Germany by simply implying there is no such equivalence. It is already happening is some parts of America. And it is also happening elsewhere is the world. I find his ignorance to this matter very saddening..
Yuki-
Please call me David. To give you the benefit of the doubt, you must have missed the part of the conversation when I was asked to compare the experiences of gays in America to Jews in the Holocaust. As such, your point about gays in the Middle East and Asia is wholly irrelevant. Had someone said the treatment of gays in Iran is similar to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, I might have disagreed but I would not have been offended.
So when you say “Mr. Benkof had just implied their lives are worth less than the Jews who face the same violence during Nazi Germany by simply implying there is no such equivalence” you are mistaken, since I never compared the experience of gays *outside* America to Jews in Nazi Germany. I would also appreciate it if you would react to the things I *say*, and ask for clarification if you’re concerned about something I’m “implying,” because I am very careful about my words and am happy to defend them, but you’re the second person on this forum who has criticized me for something I never said.
You point to my “ignorance” and say that “It is already happening is some parts of America.” Well, I have provided tons of detail already about how Nazi Germany is *not* happening in any part of America. In history, and in journalism, two fields I am very familiar with, when one person has lots of facts and the other person makes a bold assertion with no facts, the first person looks a lot better. If anyone looks ignorant, it is the person making a broad, sweeping claim (right after misrepresenting someone else’s views) while refusing to give a single example or detail.
I would be delighted to read, and respond to, your concrete, specific examples of pogroms, concentration camps, death camps, gas chambers, and crematoria aimed at gay people in America, or any other parallels you find.
But if you don’t do so, I will find your “ignorance in this matter very saddening.”
Okay, dear David,
You seem to wish me to prove a point that Nazi Germany is not America. Let me point out to you that Nazi Germany was back in during the World War. Do you wish for the same scenario to resurface that results in the millions of deaths of LGBTs instead for proof?
Alan S was correct to point out that the intolerant state of most of America against LGBTs is already in the same wavelengths as in Nazi Germany. As a top scholar you claimed to be, you should very well know the result such War would also be catrostrophic to LGBTs.
You should know very well too that countless LGBTs have also died during the World War.
Oh yes, you want details:
https://www.publicartvienna.at/picts/Morzin_pressemappe_e_neu.pdf
https://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html
https://www.holocaust-trc.org/homosx.htm
And you said you used to be a gay writer?
Which would bring to another curious question to you, would you like it to happen in America? As a graduate you should be the best person to realise that the political climate do not favour LGBTs at all, in the same breath during the Nazi era. There is still laws to defend against murders. Sadly, hate crimes against sexual orientation and gender identity is still up for debate. Which makes me curious. Do you disagree to with hate crime protections for LGBTs? And do you claim your superiority over all LGBTs?
And it saddens me that you “might disagree” the death sentences hanging on Iranians LGBT heads have any semblence to the Nazi regime. I do not need to prove anything. If you were “very careful” with your words you would have not risk a single inch of word in hurting those who had lost their homosexual loved ones in Iran. We all lost someone we love.
You overlooking the simple logic of the same rhetoric ringing throughout the centuries, and your refusal to acknowledge history you claim to know so much about already proved to everyone reading here who is the ignorant one. That is why your education just do not translate into wisdom and knowledge. Simply even the Bible did not say Jews deserve death, but biblically implied “death for homosexuals” had been resounding for years by people such as the late Jerry Fallwell. And surely as a gay journalist, you very well know gays are claimed to be diseased by AIDS? Just how much information you would overlook just to prove your point is beyond me. What actually you are trying to prove here?
By the way, when you were David Bianco, you were implied in the statement here:
You would probably say you meant homosexuality and that you are separate the homosexuality with the homosexual lifestyle? So as you claim to be a gay journalist, what is the homosexual lifestyle? Is it only confined to gay sex? And on the statement above, since JONAH takes references from NARTH, is that why you have disagreements with JONAH?
David (Benkof),
I’m not going to bother detailing the parallels, because they are all too well known [eg]. You are refusing to discuss that substance; relying, instead, on avoidance-by-hair-splitting.
(No, we didn’t have pogroms: we had police raids. No, we didn’t have concentration camps — ignoring that fact that the Nazi regime sent both Jew and gay: we had gaols. No, we didn’t have death camps: we had laws that punished homosexuality with execution, at times by being burnt alive. Parallels, my friend, parallels.)
I will, however, draw you back to what you have adopted as your creed. If you want to claim “tradition”, you’re not free to pick and choose based on current mores or sensibilities. Otherwise you are being decidedly non-traditional.
Nazi Germany was an extreme, and well documented, but the attitudes required to result in such a regime are plainly not an aberration. You know as well as I do that there is perhaps no better model for arrogant, dehumanising, genocidal treatment of others than all the blood-soaked details around the conquering of Canaan.
Murder all the men and boys. Kill all the non-virgin women. Use the virgins and girls as slaves. Proudly write it up in triumphant and unapologetic detail. A jealous and proud people for a jealous and proud God.
The ethics of ancient Israel, in entirety, are nothing to be proud of. I’m not going to that source for a perfect example of the virtuous behaviour of a people. Frankly, what they did to others — when they could — was ghastly.
As you’d gather, a knee-jerk appeal to “tradition” is unlikely to offer much to persuade me; especially if the person feels free to drop other parts of that supposedly inviolate creed (or follow others who have previously done so). And, personally, when there is a choice between following either Law or Love… I’ll always hope I ultimately choose the latter.
It was that appeal to Love, firstly, rather than barbaric tradition– for all people, and regardless of their circumstances — that did set many early Christian ideals apart. It was a radical concept in a society hell-bound by tradition, and ruled by the sword. It’s the reason it appealed so rapidly to the poor, the slave and the down-trodden.
(Sadly, in time, that too was all too often ignored or forgotten. Success itself turned Christians into a jealous and proud people, and I shouldn’t need to remind you what that eventually meant for either Jews… or gay men and women).
Other than a patent “God likes it that way”, you have failed to offer a single reason why orthodoxy (as a mind-set) is ever a good idea; with regard to the Torah, tradition, sexuality, or anything else. Especially long-term, or in individual circumstances.
And at the end of the day, that is the question Emily K has sagely asked of you.
Mr. Benkof,
If I understand your argument, it is that because anti-gay discrimination is not as severe as anti-Jew discrimination in Nazi Germany, then therefore it is acceptable.
If this is your moral position, I am extremely glad that I do not share your religious tradition. Further, I am very glad that in this country the overwhelming majority of Jews disavow discrimination against gay people.
I would suggest between the comparison to the discrimination and harassment that many Jews have experience and that which is present in some parts of the world – and even parts of the united states – would probably be closer to that of Jews during the Inquisition.
I am not a scholar of Jewish history, but I do have at least some minor knowledge.
For example, I know that a Jew could sometimes escape persecution by “conversion” though a converted Christian-Jew was never treated equal to a born Christian. And I know that it was not long before ex-Jews were targets as well.
I know that sometimes a Jew could flee to a more tolerant state. In some, they could rise to positions of power or weath and contribute to the arts and the culture. But there was always beneath the surface the very real threat that one could be destroyed in an instant because of who you were.
And in some instances the expulsion (one might say “exporting”) of Jews was compulsory. And this uprooting was devastating with long impact.
Now, I see some parallels in the modern world. In much of Africa and all of the Arab world, death is the punishment for gays. In regions as close as Jamaica there have been mob murder of gay people.
But there are safe havens. A gay Iranian can flee to a European state and hope and pray they don’t send you back. An American can flee to the city and feel relatively safe.. but still there are hate crimes in West Hollywood and Chelsea.
And conversion to ex-gay status can get you some acceptance from your community. Or hiding your identity and pretending to be part of the majority can often protect you from harassment.
As yet, no state has practiced expulsion, though Gov. Rick Perry has publically stated that if gays want to live in some other place they really aren’t welcome in Texas. Few mainstream media seemed to find that a remarkable statement – he was just protecting marriage.
We hope and pray that we never have to hear “convert, leave, or die” in any American state. Yet that is without question the case in much of the world. And there is little doubt on my part that a great many Americans would sympathize with such a proclamation.
I hope that Mr. Bekhof can see the similarities. I hope that he would not be sympathetic with such an anti-gay proclamation.
But it does disturb me that he does not see that discrimination against gay persons justifies discrimination against other persons. And considering the history of the world and the anti-Semetic attitudes of a great many Americans I find it quite probable that those restrictions that he would impose on gays could be imposed on Jews.
Yuki-
You claim that I “seem to wish [you] to prove a point that Nazi Germany is not America.” Huh? I would like you to try to prove that Nazi Germany *is* America, if you can. But you can’t, because it isn’t. Would you please stop telling me what I “seem” and “imply” and instead focus on what I *say*. I can defend my words. I cannot be expected to defend your fantasies of what I “seem” and “imply.”
You claim that “Nazi Germany was back in during the World War.” I strongly suggest you do some reading before you make claims about history. First of all, there were two world wars, only one of which Nazi Germany was in. Second, Nazi Germany existed from January 1933 to September 1939 – seven years before a single WWII shot had been fired. And if you are to have any success arguing that anti-gay persecution is like anti-Jewish persecution, you will have to focus on the pre-war years, because you would look pretty silly arguing that there are Einsatzgruppen, ghettos, death camps, gas chambers, and crematoria for gays in America.
You ask whether I “wish for the same scenario to resurface that results in the millions of deaths of LGBTs instead for proof?”Obviously that’s a rhetorical question, for I wish deaths of no one. But correct me if I’m wrong, since your logic is hard to follow: You have no actual evidence that American society is planting the seeds of a Holocaust against LGBTs. But you’re saying that I should accept your analogy, because if you’re right, and there does turn out to be a Holocaust against LGBTs, the blood of millions of people is on my hands? Well, I’m sorry, I insist on actual evidence – examples, instances, data – before I’m willing to accept the wild claim three of you on this forum are making.
You wrote, “As a top scholar you claimed to be, you should very well know the result such War would also be catrostrophic to LGBTs.” I assume English is not your first language – which is fine. It’s just that I can’t make heads or tails of this sentence. FYI I am also competent in French, Hebrew, Italian, German, and Yiddish, so if you want to write me on or offlist in one of those languages I can translate for the benefit of everyone else.
You wrote “You should know very well too that countless LGBTs have also died during the World War.” Oh really? If that’s true, please name one lesbian, one gay man, one bisexual, and one transgendered person who died during World War II. I mean, if you’re so sure it’s true, you should be able to back your statement up with *one* example of each type of person you say died in World War II, shouldn’t you?
Your first link was to a pamphlet about gay victims of the Holocaust. I wrote my master’s thesis about gays and the Holocaust. This isn’t news to me. What’s your point? How does the fact that gays died in the Holocaust mean the situation of gays in America is like that of Jews in Nazi Germany?
Next, you link to an extremely homophobic essay by an opponent of gay rights who claims the Nazi party was largely gay. While before 1934 there were some gays, including important ones, in the Nazi Party, the Holocaust itself was not carried out by gays. The author of the essay you propose as “evidence” (of what, I have no idea) admits he knows no German. No reputable historian would consider research about Germany and Germans done without using German sources to be in any way legitimate. Did you even read the piece? Did you think I wouldn’t? Did you think I’d just be impressed – Yuki has a link! – and not notice that you’re citing someone who is viciously homophobic to make your point – although what that point may be, I have no idea.
Finally, you link to the Holocaust Museum’s summary of the anti-gay persecution. I have written about this campaign in both my books. I guarantee you I know more about it than you do. What is your point?
You write, “the political climate do not favour LGBTs at all, in the same breath during the Nazi era.” Uh, no. There are two openly gay members of Congress. Gays and lesbians are one of the four or five most powerful constituent groups of the largest political party in America (the Democrats). More than half the states have at least one openly gay representative. More than half the population of America is protected against anti-gay discrimination. Jews in Nazi Germany had literally NO power. They couldn’t even vote after 1935! What on earth are you talking about?
I do disagree with hate crimes laws, not just based on sexual orientation and gender identity, but also based on race, gender, religion, and ethnicity. I believe in punishing crimes, and I want prosecutors to vigorously go after gay bashers who break the law. But punishing people based on their thoughts and not their actions is wrong, in my opinion. And hate crimes laws have had absurd consequences. In California a few years ago there was a transgendered woman named Gwen Araujo who lied about her biology and tricked a few straight men into having sex with her. By forcing them to have gay sex against their will, she had essentially raped them. Of course, it was terrible for her victims to then murder her. But instead of their getting a lighter sentence because they killed someone who had done something unspeakable to them, instead they got more *severe* sentences because Araujo was transgender! Ridiculous.
I do not claim superiority over GLBTs.
You claim that gays are killed in the Middle East almost every day. My impression is the truth is closer to a handful of times a year. But maybe you’re right. If gays are killed in the Middle East almost every day, that means 5-6 were killed in the last week. Could you provide links to the stories covering the 5-6 most recent murders?
You claim we all lost someone we love in Iran. Sorry, but I didn’t. Who did you lose?
It’s almost Shabbat so I’ll have to stop here and pick up on Saturday night. Talk to you then.
Yes, English is not my first language. It is Chinese, Thai, Malay and Tagalog. You proudly display yours and I will proudly display mine. I do not undertand your rhetorics either, you just shrugged off every single detail of what I say and just trample it over just to prove you are right. So let us make things simpler for you.
Are you saying there are no LGBT deaths during Nazi Germany? I am trying to make a point that homophobia exists and people want them to die anytime, and you still do not understand? You want a link to the same homophobia in both times and I gave it. You say you know of deaths of gays during Nazi Germany but then still want me to present you proof? So with this confusion in your statements may I ask you again, what do you wish to accomplish here? You wish to win this argument? You win! There, happy?
You talk so much but cite no evidence yourself. Just how many states which protects LGBTs from being fired from jobs or getting killed? All that protects LGBTs is just the constitution. But everyone else has protection based religion, race and so forth. Just how many LGBTs died during Nazi Germany. You said you know they died. Come on, educate me. You know the answer to your own questioning. Perhaps in this you would educate yourself too.
Your assertion that Gwen Araujo lied is ludicrous. And it is damnly insulting to me and all the rest of the transgender community. That is it, I had it with you. She is living her gender identity. She knows she is a girl. They should be lucky to get off with their lives in tact because she is dead. Yes, you implied again, that her life is meaningless. All this after saying you wished deaths of no one. Yeah, just pin the blame on the helpless victim.
Perhaps I should follow Emily K’s example and just walk away from your silly rhetorics. I admire her maturity and wisdom, more than all your “education” put together.
David Benkof:
“Every proud man is an abomination to the Lord: though hand should be joined to hand, he is not innocent. The beginning of a good way is to do justice; and this is more acceptable with God, than to offer sacrifices.” Proverbs 16:5
What impressed me the most when I visited the Holocaust Museum in El Paso, TX (where I am originally from) was the ones who gave the tour unendingly said that what happened to the people of the Holocaust, Jewish, Gypsies, Gays, and the other unwanteds, was that NO hate of ANY kind can be tolerated BECAUSE a small amount CAN grow into the elimination of those who are not wanted in a society.
I see your rhetoric and reasoning, David Benkof, as such: if a person is beaten to death with a club and another person is killed with a bullet to the head and another stabbed with a knife, that these victims of violence are not related. They have nothing in common, and the family of the one whose loved one died by stabbings cannot understand the ones whose loved one died by clubbing. And that the ones whose family member was shot, when they say there are parrallels to the deaths of all three, for you that would be an insult.
If you want “proof” of what has been stated, perhaps listing to this might be a start:
https://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R607180900
but it amazes me a man as wise and knowledgeable as yourself could not find actual incidents of crimes against gays, laws against gays, and the like. Might I suggest a search engine like Google or Yahoo.
David Benkof,
I’ve never heard of you before so I don’t have any history with you, though I suspect from some of the above that others do. That said, the comments on this thread have become rather long and tedious since you dropped by. We strive to be easily read by the average surfer browsing through, so try to be more concise and focus on one or two things at a time.
You might also find that the quality of debate would improve generally if you lower the level of ego in some of your comments. Suggesting that others have deluded themselves by understanding scripture in a way you do not, dropping multiple references to your accomplishments, degrees attained, works published, even the number of languages in which you are fluent – these are all wonderful and valid achievements, but one can be forgiven for sensing some arrogance in there.
In short, very little learning will occur here if one person makes a claim, and you simply deny that claim while claiming the sheer volume of what you have achieved in life as the reason. This is a transparent attempt at intimidation and counter to spirit of open, honest debate. We aren’t here to showcase your achievements, but to discuss the issues brought out in the original post. And to do so in a way that everyone can participate.
JONAH has established themselves as a destination for those who are homosexual but do not want to be. As such, they make some incredbile claims. XGW is a watchdog for such organizations and you are a guest on our site. Aside from the reason Emily stopped replying to you (i.e. your “carrot remark”), which I agree could be taken as rather condescending, your analogy does not hold up.
You are welcome to participate, but please try to keep these issues in mind if you do. If you feel someone is flawed in their facts, just show them by linking to an accurate, authoritative source. If you are learned enough to know the answer, you are also skilled enough to illustrate it kindly for the other participants.
Thank you.
David Benkof,
I have watched you bully people around, smacking them over the head with your big degree and arrogant attitude. You tore Emily apart for what amounted to a semantic difference, and what you felt was an unfair parallel between gays and jews. You then went into a ridiculously self-serving monologue about how smart you are and how dumb Emily is. Bravo, what a big man you are! Attack someone who isn’t even paying attention! Perhaps there’s a kitten somewhere you can kick, I’m sure it looked at you funny, it probably has it coming.
It would appear that while your brain is ful, your heart is empty. I’ve seen no empathy from you. No attempt to reach common ground. No compassion, no soul. For any dialogue, those are not optional.
So fine. I know I shouldn’t speak directly for the group, but I’m going to right now. You win. You’re right about everything. Do you want a cookie?
Emily,
Again I want to thank you for this post. It helps me to see that the religious gay issue is not limited to the Christian world. đ Keep up the good work.
It would be nice to see other non-Christian faiths as well join in.
I find this whole reasoning that because modern day America isn’t as bad as Nazi Germany, that gays should NOT point out the parallels between modern anti-gay bigotry and 20th century anti-semetism to be bizarre in the extreme. If one was to wait until the conditions were similar, it would be far too late to raise one’s voice. The idea is to speak up early to counter bigotry and discrimination, rather than allow it to grow stronger and stronger.
I thought this was supposed to be the primary lesson that we all (Jew and non-Jew) were suppose to take from the Holocaust.
Also, every neo-Nazi group that I am aware of in Europe and the United States specifically targets gays.
I will be the first to say that I think it best to avoid typical “Hitler comparisons” because they are almost always wrong, detract from the vile reality of the holocaust, and are usually a last ditch effort when all the facts have been used up.
However, in as much as the systematic dehumanization of the Jews in early Nazi Germany is a classic example of how such things are done, I believe there are some striking similarities. Obviously, there is a difference in degree, at least in the US, but I believe a valid comparison can be made.
I illustrate this single paragraph because it eliminates any credibility that David Benkof may have had coming into this discussion.
First, history is not held captive to the iteration of names. That I don’t know the name of a single individual that died at Gettysberg does not mean that the battle did not occur. That I don’t know who captained the Spanish Armada does not indicate that it did not sail.
Second, I’m quite certain that Mr. Benkof knows fully well that a demand for a name has no merit as an argument in this conversation. Yet he made the argument anyway in some odd attempt to discredit Yuki.
Third, some claims are so kooky that those who make them no longer are considered worth engaging in conversation: flat earthers, those who argue the holocaust never occurred, those who think the world is run by a secret cabal. History or facts are irrelevant to them and debate is pointless.
I suggest that those who argue that gay people were not victims of Nazi persecution and were not included in concentration camps fall into this category. The historical evidence is too large, too widely spread, and too compelling for any legitimate and reasonable scholar of gay history to deny.
Yet Mr. Bekhof suggests that such a claim requires proof.
If, indeed, Mr. Bekhof does not believe that gay people were victims along with Jews, gypsies, and others – though in lesser numbers – then he is either seriously deluded or is not the scholar that he claims to be.
Fourth, it is more likely that Mr. Bekhof is fully aware of gay victims and is instead demanding proof of what is readily known. This is similar to demanding during argument proof that water is wet. It’s childish and an attempt to waste someone else’s time and would be grounds for banning at any number of websites.
Fifth, Mr. Bekhof pretends to misunderstand what Yuki is saying. Yuki was using LBGT generally and in its inclusive form. Yuki was not making the claim that separate groups of gays and lesbians and bisexuals and transgenders were each targeted. I don’t believe that post-op transexuals existed prior to WWII, though there were undoubtedly people that were transgendered.
But Mr. Bekhof pretends that Yuki must provide the name of a transgendered person or Yuki’s argument is invalid. That sort of behavior suggests that I would not much like Mr. Bekhof as a person.
Finally, Bekhof’s tone is mocking and condescending. He seeks to bully and intimidate Yuki.
This is not the hallmark of a person well grounded in logic and thoughtful debate. Rather, it is the attribute best associated with one who is so insecure with their position that they need to shout down any disagreement… lest they hear it and lose their own certainty.
And those are my observations from just one paragraph.
Timothy Kincaid, very well stated.
We’ll give you another one as all-too-typical distortion:
January 1933 to September 1939 … you will have to focus on the pre-war years, because you would look pretty silly arguing that there are Einsatzgruppen, ghettos, death camps, gas chambers…
Urgh, no. Let’s take the Einsatzgruppen to begin with.
These began as ad-hoc units tasked to secure government offices etc in Austria, and later Czechoslovakia. Not in 1933, but from 1938. These groups were disbanded afterwards. They were reformed at the invasion of Poland, but now were also tasked with murdering the Polish “leadership” (a very broad group that included teachers, as example).
They only became what they later became notorious for from 1941 — with the invasion of the Soviet Union. That’s 1941, Mr Benkof : 8 years after the Nazi rise to power.
A very similar and gradual decline into utterly perverse depravity can be laid-out for the camps. What began as (essentially) gaols for political opponents eventually were joined by what we now know as the extermination camps: one element in The Final Solution, and following the conclusion that the Einsatzgruppen were not “effective” enough. It’s 1942 now, Mr Benkof; not January 1933.
As for Jewish ghettos — this is so utterly distorted I’m almost at a loss where to begin. Jewish ghettos existed in Europe for centuries before anyone had even heard of Nazi Germany. Even the word ‘pogrom’ was in currency by the early 19th century.
We’re not talking 1933 here Mr Benkof — but a millenium of apartness, discrimination, abuse, fear, terror, ignorance and slander.
I’m not one for a priori slippery-slope arguments, but the 12 years from 1933 onwards are certainly good evidence for one. The Halocaust didn’t rise out of nothing: rather, it was a logical conclusion to a long and disgraceful history.
And now, I need a long hot shower. Bleah.
Wow! While I was observing Shabbat the rest of you had a lot to say to and about me. I apologize for the length of this post – I promise that after I respond to the comments from Shabbat, I will not be making future lengthy posts at XGW. Given that I was religiously restricted from responding to each comment as it came in, I hope you will understand.
Since my last comments,
Yuki claimed that Jerry Falwell used to call for death for homosexuals, which he never did, though he did make one stupid remark about AIDS. She then said something that made it sound like she thinks gays don’t get AIDS, which is nonsense. Then, she quotes the unreliable anti-gay organization NARTH’s misrepresentation of what I believe, and accepts it as truth. I thought people on this site knew NARTH is slippery with facts! This was the second time Yuki cited viciously anti-gay sources as proof of whatever she was trying to allege. Does that bother no one?
Grantdale, admirably, pointed to a Web site that is quite impressive in documenting parallels between Nazi rhetoric and some American anti-gay rhetoric. I’m thrilled that someone finally used actual documents, data, and hard evidence rather than repeating the same wild claims. Unfortunately for his argument, the Web site’s quotes are mostly from fringe figures in American life, virtually none of whom have any real power. Since the issue we are debating is Emily’s statement about how gays are *treated* in America (not talked about), Grantdale’s link only goes a tiny way toward proving the analogy. Then, Grantdale cites things that happened to gays in America in the 17th century and the mid-20th century, which are irrelevant to the discussion of how gays in America are treated today. Then, Grantdale demands that as a traditional Jew I defend the actions of my ancestors several thousand years ago – ancestors who weren’t even Jews (they were Israelites and Hebrews). This attack on my people is totally irrelevant to the debate at issue. Then he raises the old anti-Semitic canard about how Christians are about Love and Jews are about Law (yawn). Finally he claims that Emily K’s screed wasn’t, as it appears, about criticizing how much gay sex I once had, insulting the memory of Holocaust victims, and opposing my stance on same-sex marriage. Rather, she was really asking me for “a single reason” why orthodoxy is a good idea. I have read and re-read Emily K’s post and cannot figure for the life of me how he came to that conclusion. And Emily K isn’t talking, so I guess we’ll never know.
Timothy Kincaid announced that my true argument was that anti-gay discrimination is acceptable. Given that I never said that, don’t believe that, and in 2004 spoke out on national television in favor of the Employment Non-discrimination Act, which I still support (the Barney Frank version), this comment is troubling to me. Timothy’s next post traced the history of anti-Semitism through the centuries in an unobjectionable way, though he did not address the analogy on the table. He then lied about Rick Perry’s stance on gays (Gov. Perry said that *if* gays want to marry, they should go to another state, not that they weren’t welcome at all in Texas). Nine times he called me “Mr. Bekhof” even though I asked to be called David twice, and signed my name “David Benkof” over and over again.
Yuki asked if I was saying there were no LGBT deaths in Nazi Germany. It is crystal clear that there were virtually no targeted LBT deaths in Nazi Germany. We don’t know for sure, but something around 5-7,000 gay men died because of their sexuality. The Nazis did not send German lesbians to camps because of their sexuality, and self-identified bisexuals and transgendered people were also not victims of the Holocaust (unless they were also Jewish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.) To answer her question, 20 states have non-discrimination laws covering gays (plus DC), and in the other 30 states dozens of jurisdictions have such laws. Well over half the U.S. population is covered. Of course, Yuki thinks only the Constitution protects gays from discrimination, which is funny, because it doesn’t. That’s why we need ENDA. And Yuki thinks it is legitimate for someone born with a penis and a Y chromosome to tell a straight man she’s a woman (which according to Yuki isn’t a lie), have sex with him, and then say “Surprise! I used to be a dude.” While murdering Gwen Araujo was a dreadful act, if the men she unconscionably deceived had simply socked her in the face for essentially raping them, and they were tried for assault and I was a juror, I would not hesitate to vote “not guilty.”
I’m going to take a break. I’ll be back.
No, you won’t.
At XGW we can and do debate differing points of view on a regular basis and have 6 years of archives to illustrate that. But civil debate requires a degree of respect for those present and a willingness to sacrifice ego and prejudice for the truth. Those unwilling to do this should not expect a permanent soap box at XGW.
Update 3-30-2008: This thread was closed to new comments after Mr. Benkof’s last post, but for reasons unknown it stayed open and 3 more comments posted. These have been removed for two reasons. At least one comment asked questions of Benkof to which he can no longer reply. Another was a comment by Yuki in which she misunderstood a statement by Benkof about the death of Gwen Araujo.
Benkof has objected to our leaving the latter up without his ability to reply. Since none of these three comments should have been possible in the first place, and because this thread has veered hopelessly off topic and is now filled with disrespectful intimidation, we removed the three comments (the last of which was a summary observation by grantdale) and have made sure the thread his securely closed.