The worldwide leader and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints passed away earlier this week at the age of 97. Gordon B Hinckley had been the 15th President of the Church, popularly known as the Mormons, since 1995.
In 1999, Hinckley said the following at the General Conference of the Church:
Our opposition to attempts to legalize same-sex marriage should never be interpreted as justification for hatred, intolerance or abuse of those who profess homosexual tendencies, either individually or as a group. We love and honor them as sons and daughters of God. They are welcome in the church. It is expected, however, that they follow the same God-given rules of conduct that apply to everyone else, whether single or married.
While clearly falling short of affirming homosexuality, it was welcomed by gay- and lesbian-oriented Saints as a long-overdue acknowledgement of their existence.
Interestingly, while the Church’s official position appears to favor celibacy for gays and lesbians, remaining non-committal on the effectiveness of reparative therapy, unofficial LDS ex-gay ministry Evergreen International seems more at home with the hardline positions of NARTH and Paul Cameron.
Your reference for this statement is inaccurate. President Hinckley has never spoken at an Evergreen conference. This statement was made at the worldwide, semiannual General Conference of the Church.
Utter nonsense. It was Hinckley who insisted on referring to “so-called gays and lesbians.” That hardly constitutes “acknowledging our existence.”
Good riddance.
Tito, thanks for the correction. I did find it a bit strange that someone as high up as Hinckley would be speaking at Evergreen.
KipEsquire, just to clarify, it was gay- and lesbian-oriented Saints who welcomed the remarks as an acknowledgement of their existence:
Source: PlanetOut.com.
No prob, Dave. Evergreen has professed their support for the Church, but the Church as an institution has no official position on Evergreen. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone in the highest leadership, the First Presidency or Quorum of Twelve Apostles, ever mention Evergreen when addressing homosexual issues, or speak to a body of members at an event sponsored by Evergreen.
While LDS Leadership does not publicly declare support for the organization, emeritus members of the First Quorum of 70 have served on Evergreen’s board of directors.
While differences of opinion exist between many on the subject of homosexuality, I find it abhorrent that anyone would say something like “good riddence”at the passing of an influential leader. There are times and ways to express our disagreements, but this inexcusable.
John L.
Welcomed as a member or a pew warmer? If you’re welcomed as a member you’re expected to be tithed too, I suppose. But it doesn’t really come down to being a matter of money. A person afflicted with same-sex attraction will never be called into a leadership position in their lay clergy. The afflicted Saint would never have a job in teaching in Sunday School much less being affiliated with their scout program (heaven forbid!). You probably wouldn’t even see a group of afflicted Saints even asked to cater or decorate for the receptions to all the myriads of Temple Sealings.
This would be dignifying their affliction.
A gay Mormon is the antithesis to everything (I mean everything) in the LDS Church. I don’t even think there is even ONE token gay Mormon out there…much like you have with an A. Chambers or an R. Thomas.
Welcomed? Much like any VISITOR to their Ward House meetings is all.
Cowboy, that simply isn’t true. While you couldn’t be (homo)sexually active and be a member in full fellowship, the leadership has increasingly taken pains to make sure that both members and local leaders know that as long as behavior is in line with Church teaching, there is no position that homosexual members cannot serve in–including positions that require marriage, such as a bishop or stake president, if they do happen to be in a MOM. I know men who currently serve as bishops, or as counselors to bishops, or in other positions, and their higher-ups know about their orientation. One man I know was in a gay marriage, and when it ended he returned to the Church. Knowing of his relationship history his leaders still asked him to serve at one point as the president of the young men’s organization.
There are still instances of ignorance or bigotry, but they are not based in policy, and there are plenty of other instances of openness, understanding, and outreach to counter the bigotry.
Respectfully, Tito I don’t believe you. And I can understand it would be nigh impossible for you to provide proof of someone who was once gay and now is the President of a Young Men’s organization. Your assertion of someone you personally know may be true but it’s unverifiable.
Let me make another point. The NARTH convention here in Salt Lake City (in the shadows of the Temple) had featured guests and lecturers. Not many were gay Mormons. Most of the talks were made by non-Mormon ex-gays or hetero Mormon authorities. Would you not think there would be a cadre of ex-gay Mormons to choose from. Meaning: would you not find a few happy celibate gay Mormons to speak?
And I don’t understand:
What do you mean?
I could ask one of the men that came to my house to wish me Merry Christmas and offered me a thick book on the life of Joseph Smith, just what is “policy” and what is reality. Maybe they can point me to the policies in their official Bishop’s Handbook.
But, I find it hard to believe, with associating with the dozen or so recovering gay Saints I know, that members of a Ward would be so welcoming to gays and lesbians. It’s sorely not reality in my experience and in my opinion.
The connection between NARTH and Evergreen can hardly be denied. But back in the days when shock and vomit therapy were administered to homosexuals on BYU campus the LDS church was careful to distance itself officially from the unproven and controversial practice. And for good reason, after all, pornography (of sorts) was utilized. It may be that the church learned a valuable lesson from that failed experiment, and general church authorities have never officially embraced Evergreen, nor reparative therapy.
Still, church leaders on a local level widely refer homosexual members to Evergreen as a resource and general church authorities routinely speak at Evergreen’s annual conferences, held in the church-owned Joseph Smith Memorial building, adjacent to Temple Square.
But even with its close ties to reparative therapy, the latest official material from LDS headquarters clearly recognizes the high failure rate of those who seek to change their sexual orientation.
Tito, I disagree too. When I spoke to the Bishop about being gay (without any act), I was disfellowshipped. I was not allowed to participate in communion, social prayer, priesthood, temple, etc. I was celibate, but I was on the out. I was treated like a pariah.
I was eventually excommunicated–of my own choice. I was told that I could marry and fake it, of course, but I could never profess I was gay. I was told also thatif I stayed single I would never attain anything in the church. The church is very suspicious of single members over a certain age. I also know a gay guy over 40 who never had a relationship, and he was not allowed to participate in any social activities or leadership. The church is pretty harsh on gay issues.
Of course, the current Mormon position is to reach out to gays with love and respect, so naturally the Westbro Baptist Church will be protesting at Gordon B. Hinckley’s funeral. Press Release (PDF).
Cowboy, you are dead wrong on your position on this issue and I am a personal witness to that fact. It’s not a black and white issue as you and Aaron have painted it out to be. If you think it is then you’re just as ignorant as Mormons who take a very similar negative position toward us and it is a very shallow uneducated one. Sorry but my own experience has not been like yours; however I do acknowledge the negative and the painful processes that far too many GLBT Latter-day Saints have gone through (including your own painful experience Tito) especially from the 1950s through the early 1990’s. There have been however, areas of great progress with the LDS Church I have seen and experienced personally. The injustice of it all is that in some congregations you will find immense welcome and others you will not. Each congregation and leadership’s approach is arbitrary, due to ignorance and the other due to education and enlightenment. It all depends upon the larger culture and the members and leaders experiences with GLBT people in general.
I know that you probably have never heard of Bishop Robert Reese or of Bishop Stan Roberts of the Bay Area Singles Ward. These men are amazing. I myself had an incredible Bishop in Manhattan who more than welcomed my companion and I at the time asking us to please come to Church and take part in the services. He defended me in a phone conversation with my bishop in Wyoming when I was visiting my father who was sick with cancer as I was attending my home ward for the summer. My Wyoming bishop was being incredibly judgmental and legalistic toward me as he found out about my relationship with my partner at that time. He called my New York bishop (my home ward then) and told him that he was not doing his job that he needed to hold a Church court to disfellowship or excommunicate me. My New York bishop basically rebuked my bishop in Wyoming telling him that he needed to treat me as Christ taught us to treat one another and asked him how he would feel if he were in my shoes. My partner and I were called on to pray in our New York Ward and though my bishop there had his parameters with regard to priesthood ordinances (giving blessings, etc.) he pushed the parameters as far as he could in our favor as he believed in us. You know what? I saw the image of Christ in that man and often communed with the Holy Spirit through my experiences of fellowship with him. He was an incredible man of charity and true Christian discipleship.
I also know of bishops and stake presidents who have pled with the Brethren in Salt Lake City (the apostles and the prophet) to make a place for us at the Table and they have wrestled with this issue and struggled with how to reconcile our situation with that of the doctrines of families and eternal marriage. How can you understand when you have no personal experience and you are trying to reconcile two things that just don’t seem to fit into the picture? That is a terrifying experience. It takes immense broad thinking to come to a place of real understanding if you have no personal experience with our orientation. This is something I personally believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. would have understood because he was such a radical revolutionary and was very unafraid of facing the abyss. He faced it on an almost daily basis, reaching, pleading, going beyond the bounds and then coming back again with more knowledge and experience but most of all with immense love. Just like Jan Shipps (a Methodist) American historian and scholar said Joseph Smith’s entire life was that of pain and exilleration through falling and rising, falling and rising and transcending again and again. Each time he and his people became more refined, stronger, ever able to deal with the riggers of life and the hardships of being driven out of the then boundaries of the United States and exiled into the wilderness (literally thousands of miles away) much like GLBT are exiled in far too many Christian Churches today.
Most Latter-day Saints shudder at the experience of dealing with this thing (homosexuality) that they have been taught all their lives is wrong, sinful and unspeakable. It is those leaders and members who have faced the abyss of the unknown and have walked into that dark and fearful place who have found sanctifying communion with the Holy Spirit. There are Latter-day Saint Bishops and even some General Authorities. I know of some Gen. Authorities who are Seventies who have had that experience and it leaves them speechless and simply at the mercy of the Spirit to know what to do because that’s all they can do without any written direct revelation on the subject and so much cultural baggage that is negative toward us. Bishop Robert Reese has asked that the entire Church fast and pray about this issue in order to call down the revelations of Heaven in order to understand our situation and to make major changes in the Church. Many individual members and whole families are changing their viewpoints (even though it is gradual) on our situation. It is an excruciatingly difficult thing for many Mormons to deal with.
I came out publicly in my community at a meeting with Judy Shepard (after the production of The Laramie Project) and one member of the Bishopric in the other Jackson, Wyoming ward was in that production and understood me very well. If you want me to I’ll direct you to his direct contact information online. I’ll do that for you and you can talk with him directly about it if you need any evidence. I also came out in the New York Times and People Magazine and though my local Ward bishop was very upset (very uneducated about the GLBT experience) he has slowly begun to understand and his counselors were proud of me for being honest about myself and told me personally that they were proud of me and love me.
Your experience with Mormonism though often still the norm is slowly moving away from that norm of ignorance, bigotry, fear, hate, ostracism through disfellowshipment and excommunication, etc. A more understanding spirit is changing. The “so-called” lesbians and gays that Brother Hinckley stated along with “those who call themselves lesbians and gays” is a step in the right direction. Their using the terminology is huge because those words were never used in General Conference prior to President Hinckley. Also President Hinckley was the first General Authority to begin to speak publicly about marriage not being used as a cure for homosexuality. That also was a huge step in the right direction. Our impatience with these people needs to be replaced with the Spirit of Christ and we need to throw love at them for that always disarms anyone who is afraid due to misunderstanding.
You can also look up the name John Gustav Wrathal online in his “A Gay Mormon Testimony” found in an article he published in Sunstone Education Foundation magazine an open and liberal forum for Latter-day Saints. I find his experience with being exiled from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and his miraculous spirit led return to the Church as an experience that is nothing short of fascinating and humbling to me. He and his partner of 10 years are active in their local ward as much as they can be under the limiting doctrinal circumstances.
It is the doctrine of excluding GLBT members (who choose partnership with a same gender partner) not allowing them to grow to their full potential that I do not agree with. It does not place Gay Latter-day Saints on equal footing with the majority heterosexual Latter-day Saints as to opportunities for dating, courtship and marriage of a same gender partner. That is the abyss into a corridor that most Latter-day Saints (even many GLBT ones) are terrified to face yet things are changing and moving even if so gradually. This strange, new and radical Christian church has been through immense tribulation and has come out stronger and even more dynamic as a result. Again I have seen the other side and I had to acknowledge that side as Cowboy and Tito’s (especially KipEsquire’s divisive expression) viewpoints lacked the reality of the opposite experience that I have personally been witness to. I had to speak out about this.
I need to make a correction in my last post. Replace the name of Tito with Aaron. It’s obviously very late and I should be asleep. I got very wrought up about this issue because it just failed to show the whole picture and I had to write about it. Sorry my post was so lengthy.
Edited, Benjamin!
Gosh, Benjamin, you do passionately defend the LDS Church at times. I’m sorry but I don’t share your optimistic outlook. After the next change in the LDS leadership there looks to be another man up for being Prophet who has made some rather hard-lined opinions about gays. B. K. Packer is just 2nd in line, right? Do I have to paste some of his quotes from Priesthood meetings and pronouncements?
I will readily admit I plead ignorance and I don’t share in the “Spirit” …communion with / or of Christ. It’s going to be an “us” versus “them” situation for a long, long time.
It’s unfair of me to ask you a personal question. I’m just a spec of electrons on this blog and totally anonymous. This is one-sided, I know. But unless you’re totally celibate and living nearly a monk-like existence you will not have the same rights and privileges in the LDS Church as a single hetero-sexual man/woman in the Ward. Being tagged with the label: gay is an automatic decree of being unholy and broken and not equal in the eyes of the LDS Church. I can hardly believe that you and your partner can be accepted in the Jackson Hole Ward with open arms much less on equal footing. You ARE living in sin aren’t you?
I might be wrong and a bit bold in saying this: but even a chaste, celibate gay Mormon is not treated the same as a chaste, celibate non-gay Mormon.
There is nothing in the Bishop’s Handbook about this? Doctrinally there is nothing to quote except for the latest statement about being chaste and celibate until you die!
I maintain my premise: You’ll never find happiness in the LDS Church if you are gay.
And I want to add to howller’s comments: The LDS Church will never apologize for their links to the barbaric treatment of their gay Saints. Until that happens, it will be “us” versus “them”. And I am not praying or holding my breath for it to happen.
Am I bitter? YA THINK?!? It doesn’t really matter. I am gradually finding my own spiritualness (or lack thereof) to find my peace.
Benjamin, while I appreciate that you have a unique experience, I have dealt with numerous LDS gay men over the years who have been rejected from the church, and the narrative is pretty much the same across the board here in So. Cal. (even a friend of mine who was forced into marriage to stay in the church committed suicide 13 years later because the tensions between the church and his life kept growing). Am I ignorant about the current church? Sure. I left in 1990 and never looked back. Halfway during my mission I knew I would leave permanently because of being gay and because I realized that I did not really believe in the church.
One of the proudest moments of my life was when an Institute teacher started telling horror stories to his class about a returned missionary who was apostate and had resorted to all manner of crime. My sister was sitting in the room when he mentioned my name. Everything was false, but I became a urban legend in the church–cool.
Yes, maybe things have changed for the better, but I know that Kimball’s infamous pamphlet is still being distributed because I have helped people who received it from leaders in the church. I also don’t think that a church so trenched in such homophobic literature is going to somehow change their policies suddenly. You even admit in the last paragraph that the policy is the same Cowboy and I mentioned–to exclude from fellowship people in relationships.
I have a few friends from the church who treated me with respect, but the vast majority refused to talk to me unless I “changed.” Yes, these are the people. However, the church teaches that the fruit demonstrates the truth–the overwhelming majority of the church that treat gay people with disdain tells you that there is something wrong (even my family was disfellowshiped when I left–that came from leaders in the church). Benjamin, your post reminds me of many people I met through Affirmation who thought somehow that the church would change to allow them in, to embrace them. They often seemed deluded and lost–waiting around for something they believed was going to eventually happen, hanging on any morsel. Remember, the non-political church led many of the homophobic marriage ban amendments in the west. That was lead by the church leaders in SLC.
Cowboy get real. I was not born yesterday. My defense is a defense of my personal experience not yours. You can only speak for yourself. I know all about Packer so don’t think that I am naieve as to his approach from the 1970’s and what he wrote back then or even his priesthood coordinating council meeting from the early 90’s. Don’t think I don’t know about the September Six and what happened surrounding that. I know all about that. I am friends with Dr. D. Michael Quinn and I have a similar stand about many of these issues as he does. Also Cowboy you treat the LDS Church as some sort of monolithic organization and the experiences of all gay folks as exactly the same. Sorry but that just is not the case and so I had to speak out. The LDS community is a far flung tapestry of diversity of many various cultures and people throughout the world.
Cowboy and Aaron, nothing you have quoted or say is in the least bit new to me (except for your individual personal experience) as I know it and have experienced much of the ostracism. What I had to portray here is something that is unique and the other side of the coin, the complete opposite. There are two sides to every story and mine as well as many others has been different than the general. I also know about the Affirmation thing and though I love Affirmation I am not nearly as supportive of Affirmation as I am of LDS Reconciliation and I also love Sunstone. Whatever your experience and spiritual path is, it’s your own business but mine is different than yours and I have found solace in that path of understanding. I love my family and the positive legacy still outweighs the negative as I have experienced a great deal of healing through the Holy Spirit with my relationships with many Church leaders and members. They may not agree with my acceptance of my orientation as a divine gift and that a committed same sex relationship is a divine thing but they have come a long long way in accepting me and loving me. It’s all a two way street people.
I am not trying to change the Church, I am only speaking the truth of my experience and the LDS Church has every opportunity year after year to make changes as they are faced with our testimonies. Believe me I have been blunt and clear with leaders through the years. If you compare their approach today to that of 1970 or even 1990 you will see a shift in policy and more understanding. I’m very sick of the extreme negative language and bitterness on both sides (both the LDS and the gay sides of the coin generally speaking) to be perfectly honest. I think both sides have a lot to learn.
I am not defending the LDS Church’s bigotry or many of the members fear based mentality. It is the language of abomination that needs to change with the LDS Church. Whenever they make changes in their language and in their official publications that omit that language as the more recent publications have those changes need to be acknowledged. You all ought to read Carol Lynn Pearson’s No More Goodbyes Circling the Wagons Around Our Gay Loved Ones. Cowboy from what I have read of your response to me you likely would chide her for her approach as well. That’s what is so frustrating to me.
I never denied the fact that we as gay folks are treated differently by the Church generally speaking; however, my experience has been twofold, while I have experienced the pain of your experience (many of the same experiences) I have also felt the joy and peace of acceptance by many Latter-day Saints. Cowboy you completely ignored the experience I wrote about my New York bishop and his acceptance of me and of my partner at the time and how we did not feel a fear of some sort of church discipline. You are still ignoring the experiences of men like John Gustav Wrathal and many others who are outside the negative cookie cutter gay experience.
My argument is that your black and white position just is not true and does not reflect the reality of everyone’s experience. Get my drift?
Benjamin Clark’s experience reminds me of what was happening in the Catholic Church twenty-to-thirty years ago. Although the official church teaching on homosexuality hadn’t changed, many priests and some bishops were quietly accepting and encouraging openly gay Catholics.
My partner was in Catholic seminary in the late 1980’s. Many of his fellow seminarians were openly gay, in orienation if not sexual behavior. (Actually, there was a lot of that among the seminarians, as well.) The prevailing view during his theological training was that the church was coming to understand and accept homosexuality.
I was still ex-gay at that time, and working as an editor for a Catholic charismatic magazine associated with conservative theological positions. We were horrified by the growing acceptance of gays in the church. But we felt like a voice in the wilderness, getting little hearing or respect from the hierarchy for our alarms about the pro-gay trend.
How the tables have turned!
Today, I’ve come out again, so I’m on the other side of the argument. But the Catholic Church, under the conservative leadership of the last two popes, has become more viciously anti-gay than ever. The current pope loses no opportunity to lash out at gays as scapegoats for ills of the church (in the pedophilia scandal) and of western society as a whole. And there has been a crackdown through the institution–in seminaries, universities, parishes, dioceses, high schools–against any contrary voices.
So Benjamin, enjoy what little thaw in Mormon attitudes you may personally encounter. But don’t confuse that with a fundamental change in your church’s position. From what I can judge, as an outsider, the Mormon church is also hardening its political and social positions. Your gay-accepting friends may ultimately be forced to withdraw whatever welcome mat they’ve extended.
Frustrating? FRUSTRATING!!? That ain’t the half of it. (wink wink) I have to deal with family who castigates Carol Lynn Pearson and her ilk… or ANYTHING gay affirming. Would I love to have my family view Brokeback Mountain and be able to have a discussion and then understand/acknowledge a modicum of what is being portrayed in that movie! The love and not the lust factor! No way Jose’ will that ever happen in a family home evening. Can you understand not having to speak my mind and carry on a conversation about me and my ideals out of fear of being ostracized from my family. How many people do you know who are gay and pretty much live in a “don’t ask and don’t tell” environment within their own families. That’s frustrating!
I’m not discounting there are a few oases of tolerant members in the LDS Church. I trust you and I trust there are people who have made inroads with just how the Church SHOULD treat their fellow man.
But with every example you raise…I can cite hundreds of examples of where the LDS Church is dogmatically repressing a segment of their community. The overwhelming ratio of good and positive is far outweighed by the bad and the horrendous past.
Yeah…it’s pretty much black and white as I see it. Black: the LDS Church. White: some people in the LDS Church who may accept me. But the people wearing the black hats far outnumber the ones who wear the white hats.
I think that the main way that we can affect change in religion in general is through grass roots effort. So I am vigorously campaigning for and voting for Barak Obama. Hope I haven’t broken any rules by saying this. 🙂
I am prayerful that the rising generations will make major changes. The LDS Church made a huge paradigm shift back to where it stood during the time of Joseph Smith when in 1978 the church opened the door for black people of African descent to the priesthood. I say shifted back because Joseph Smith ordained more than one black man to the priesthood.
The “thaw” is not a little thaw my friend. It is a progressive (extremely slow) progress that is changing things. The Latter-day Saint movement is very young and very new. The LDS foundation is radical with the concept of continual revelation built into the system though very rarely used in major ways these days. There are some definite similarities with the Catholic tradition. The ancient Catholic Church in my estimation framed the argument and started the scriptural tradition and interpretation of marginalizing Gays and Lesbians. An example of this poisonous interpretation is the Sodam and Gomorah interpretation. That interpretation has been like a river that has flowed from church to church through the Protestant movement as well. That interpretation found its way into the LDS tradition too. Why? Because (as far as I know) there were few if any voices to counter the interpretation. Though I have seen a lot of good things that the Catholic Church has done and also the beautiful traditions and culture that has been established in many nations I think that most of their GLBT views are based in fear and ignorance.
Cowboy just tell your family how you feel anyway and tell them you’ll knock the crap out of them if they don’t give you a chance to tell your story and to listen to you. 🙂 By the way I challenge you Cowboy to show your family the movie BIG EDEN. That would be a great FHE movie. If you can get them to see that movie you’ll definitely have opened some wonderful doors. I suggest this because there is no nudity in that movie and there is no language that might be offensive to them.
Just some thoughts. I think that we all here to support each other in our journey.
Thanks you guys,
Benjamin
Benjamin,
The water under that FHE (Family Home Evening) bridge has long gone by. I’m on my own for the most part and I don’t need the mandatory Monday night gatherings anymore. That’s long gone. This man had to move out. I had to “cleave unto” something else.
I did do the rebellious stint a few years ago but by some quirk of the cosmos I’m still breathing and living. I never did get hooked on cigs or even coffee but I had some fun times at the bars. Aaron and I need to compare notes and see if either one of us is more apostate than the other. I’m sure I was the topic of conversation in some circles. The black sheep of the family…[twirls the end of my mustache].
It was through some crafty manipulation by my loving new gay buddies which made it necessary to come out and confront my family about my aberrant behavior. There were the proverbial tears and things were said that I might never be able to forget or forgive. That’s okay now. I understand the tactic: tough love. But I also come to realize the greater principle called: unconditional love.
My tribulations are relatively minor compared to what I hear from my buddies. Time has healed some. The look of disappointment in my Mom’s eyes has been diminished over the years. The defensive posture at family reunions has been sublimated by walking taller. Conversations blithely avoid the obvious no-no subjects and I probably still can’t bring a life-partner to any family functions. I’m working on it, though.
Yeah…I remember renting Big Eden. It was almost the equivalent of renting an XXX-rated video at my local Blockbuster. I hid it under my coat. (You have to know my neighborhood.) Someone took (or never returned) the only copy of Latter Days, so I had to find this short movie at another Blockbuster.
That the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has outwardly and directly involved itself in anti-gay political campaigns is widely known. It is important to recognize that these discriminatory efforts have come from the top, down through the leadership of the church. Outside of early political involvement to defeat the ERA amendment in the United States, the major efforts by the LDS church to thwart gay rights and marriage equality took place under Hinckley’s de facto watch.
Now, I mention this not to defame an honorable and loving man, but to ponder what the change in leadership might mean to GLBT individuals both in the United States and worldwide. Whereas Hinckley and most of the LDS church leadership generally have focused on matters related to spirituality and family in their public addresses, Hinckley’s successor, the soft-spoken, forward-thinking Thomas S. Monson, is known for his ministerial concern for widows and the infirm. A very kind and good man, I have never sensed bigotry or intolerance, only love and concern for those who are often overlooked by society. I am optimistic that the rhetoric and attitudes of LDS leadership toward GLBT members will continue to soften under Monson’s presidency.
Cowboy, you have always fascinated me:) To be fair to the church, I am not all doom and gloom about it, and the church made me a better person in many ways. I have never talked a person out of the church if that is what they believed. I loved my mission, and it was a special time in my life. The church does help many, and there are many good people in the church. I am not offended either by those who turned their back on me.
Back to Cowboy–I am pretty apostate. When I left the church, I did not look back. I also was not one of those people who felt resentment towards the church and wanted to hurt it (I have met those people, but they have a deepseated hatred of the church). I realized that I just no longer believed, and I don’t know if I ever really did. I used to get in trouble for being the “existentialist.” My bishop burned my copy of the Stranger when I was in 8th grade. I was cool with leaving, and if my friends didn’t want me, I figured they were not that great of friends (funny what happened to almost all my friends at that time–most are still struggling with life).
I did take away some core things–I don’t drink, drink coffee, smoke. I eat moderate meat intake. I mean I have had my crazy fun and tried almost everything under the sun between age 21 and 24 (so yes, very apostate and agnostic), but still it was a good ride. I only tend to think about it when in a discussion like this. My life is better ultimately now than when I was in the church, but I respect the church and its members.
I thought the no coffee rule was Seventh Day Adventist. What is supposed to be the problem with coffee? Seems the moderation theme would work pretty well with that, too.
No HOT caffeinated drinks. Part of the Doctrine & Covenants in the LDS Church. I think the LDS Church holds the patent on that restriction from the 1800s. [as I thumb my nose at those silly Seventh Day Adventists]…as if we’re competing for who has the silliest covenants and restrictions.
Don’t ask why only HOT caffeinated drinks (coffee and tea) and not the mega doses of caffeine you can get in a bottle of Mtn. Dew which is perfectly fine for a Mormon to drink…well…at least it doesn’t matter when the Bishop asks personal questions for your yearly interview to be allowed into their Temples. But if you drink hot coffee…whoa! That’s a major no-no.
My Dad drank his java (gasp!) each day at the coffee shop on our main street in my rural hometown. You’d think he was smuggling in cocaine the way the neighbors used to gab about his drinking coffee.
You think I’m exaggerating? Nope.
In the Mormon faith, one does not generally drink coffee, tea, or caffeine drinks. There is some big disagreements about it because the “Word of Wisdom” (which is where the health rules come from) says no hot drinks, which could mean lots of things. However, it is generally interpreted as no coffee or tea. Most Mormons I know are pretty strict about it. In fact, the bishop used to be able to deny temple recommends if someone drank coffee or tea. Alcohol is a big no-no though. Everything is simply based on the idea that Joseph Smith received revelation that said not to drink hot drinks.
I think Aaron, Benjamin and Howller (in alphabetical order so I don’t offend anyone) would agree…the makeup of the hierarchy in the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles is getting younger. The generation that runs the LDS Church now is of the “old school” ideology and perhaps…(glimmer of hope, maybe)…the newer (read younger) cache of leaders will evolve into a more accepting of their gay and lesbian Saints.
Time will tell.
In the meantime… it’s off to doing some mink ranching. It’s just like cattle ranching except our lassos are much smaller. [whip whip whoop]
Oh and…Get some sleep Benjamin!
LOL!
Cowboy, are you in contact with any of your family now? I have seen some of the most intense and even violent situations turn around after years. I could write a book and one day will about these things. Also the fear and so forth you have experienced in that culture you mentioned about renting Big Eden, etc. is something I experienced many years ago. Today I would march right in there and rent it as easily as I would a copy of Singles Ward. I really could care less what people think. What matters is what you yourself think and how you are now. The present moment is precious and you can teach many great things through your fearlessness and your love of life and truth.
I finally let go of the self deprecation, the shame, the fear and most of all the victim psychology that goes along with all of that. I am able to go to church and be in LDS conversations without the old baggage coming up. It’s very liberating, however I also am very outspoken in those circles when the opportunity comes up.
Howller you’re right about Thomas S. Monson being about ministry and helping those who are downtrodden. You know that Elder Jeff Holland is much like that as well. I like his kind and loving smile and spirit.
Cowboy, thanks for your input and I appreciate it. It stinks that you were kicked out of your home. What a test we are for LDS families sometimes. The test is between loving doctrine more than your children. No family should ever have to choose such a thing. It is Elder Packer and Elder Dallin Oaks who have been very didactic, legalistic and narrow in their interpretation of doctrine but more specifically policy than pretty much any of the others.
I believe that the Church needs to put President Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness , Crime Against Nature paragraph to bed. They also need to stop producing and distributing Elder Packer’s To Young Men Only and To The One. Those both need to be put into the shredder. I think that Elder Packer needs to admit that he spoke with very limited knowledge in the past and has learned more about our story and like President Hinckley does not pretend to know or understand why we are attracted to our same gender, etc. I think that would be huge for him. Maybe he will be the man who is sustained as the next prophet of the Church and maybe that is the great lesson he needs to learn. Hopefully he has learned a lot.
I think that what was interesting was when Ezra T. Benson was sustained as the prophet of the LDS Church a lot of people thought he was going to preach John Birch or something. He said “we must immerse ourselves in Christ.” He kept speaking about Christ and pretty much every talk he gave was about Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon as well.
Hopefully something similar will happen with Packer. That’s my hope and prayer anyway.
So do you have a Mink farm Mr. Cowboy?
🙂
Oh and by the way I believe that Jesus Christ our Savior has a ministry among all the religious faiths (Christian, Jewish and Islamic) and among the Eastern faith’s as well. I believe His outstretched hands and arms influence the world as an ongoing process to bring all of God’s children to a higher place of peace, knowledge and joy. I believe we GLBT children of God have a unique mission to perform and it is a very personal as well as collective one among these various faiths especially those who are hostile to understanding us.
That’s what I have learned over the years and through deeply personal experiences in this very diverse world.
Since Mormonism doesn’t often get a look-in on XGW, I have to say I’ve enjoyed the exchange of experiences on this thread.
Mr. Rattigan,
I would have to say this discussion is almost cathartic to me (and maybe to some of the others here). That’s maybe the mission of XGW. It’s a godsend. Oops..except I don’t believe in a god. Oh well…
I would love to coax a little more out from Aaron and possibly Benjamin. There are nuances about the wearing of Temple garments that the general public is not fully aware of. I am curious as to what/when/how was it when they had to take them off when they felt they lived in conflict with its covenants. I know…I know…this is a sacred topic. It’s taboo to really go into full details.
And to clear up a misunderstanding: I was not kicked out from my family. I was fully on my own and developing my own career when I came out to my family. We’re still very close…(too close maybe). Looking back, they knew I was gay long before I did. I was in the deepest denial anyone could imagine. When I came out to my family (and, by the way…never ever do it over the phone) it was more of a surprise to me than to them. They were prepared for that day.
I would like to weasel out of discussing mink ranching. Except to ask Emily why there is only a sect of Jews that can process the hides. But…that’s going way off topic. And if Mr. Benjamin is implying raising mink is not a man’s job…I just want to say: have you tried to wrestle a mink? They fight dirty.
Cowboy, I basically threw everything off once I got home from my mission. I knew I would never return to belief. When I asked for excommunication (that is also when I told my bishop that I was gay), the stake president and bishop wanted me to go to a church psychologist, and I agreed to at that time, but I knew that my feelings were not going to change. I still went through with it.
I took off the garments as soon as I told my bishop that I was gay, but that was fine with me. I could not stand the temple ever. Everything in the temple seemed to be opposite of what was taught in the church (the temple’s ceremonies always seemed very primitive to me). Also, there seemed to be this sense that people are forced to talk about how much the temple means to them, but it always felt empty to me. There is a very famous story by Langston Hughes about how everyone around him at a meeting were seeing Jesus and tried to force him to admit to seeing Jesus. My endowments were the first big crack in my Mormon history. They started making me question what the church was about (the fact that the church did polling in 1990 to find what people did not like in the temple strikes me as odd–they then changed the ceremony–I know–revelation).
For me, it has always been easy to get away from my past. I rarely look back or become nostalgic. I do know that some people are bothered by the ties that still connect them. I am glad I was able to just clean cut those ties. I do feel bad about one thing. When I came back, I did my homecoming speech knowing full well that I would leave the church soon. After the speech, the congregation was saying it was the best homecoming speech they had ever heard and that I would be a leader in the church, etc. Within a week afterward, I had talked to the bishop. I do feel bad that some people had been very impressed with my homecoming and then obviously they would have felt letdown once I left.
Can you believe the peer-pressure in the LDS culture? The physical displaying of your worthiness! Plus, people judge you if wore (or didn’t wear) this appropriate underwear. (Mormons know to look for the smiley band or the biker shorts hem.)
Aaron, did you move away from Utah to avoid constantly explaining yourself?
My one Sister took a long time before she did her own temple ceremony. I don’t know if it’s still true but Sweet-Spirit Sisters in the LDS Church were likely told to wait until they are married before they go through the temple ordinances. Anyway, she was somewhat in a state of shock after she did it the first time. I can tell she was not enamored with the proceedings. She hasn’t said hardly diddly to me about it either.
I’ve been to enough open-casket funerals to know what is temple garb. Imagine my surprise when I took a tour of the Masonic Temple and seeing a mannequin in the foyer wearing very similar garb. I can’t say I wasn’t expecting it because I knew Joe Smith was a Mason…but I wasn’t expecting it to be so surprisingly plagiarized.
Benjamin Clark said:
You mean…when our talking elevator announces: “Going Down” when everyone is entering the elevator and then it says: “Get Lost” when I get on … I shouldn’t be a little fearful?
I’ve avoided asking to keep the conversation serious, but please tell me what on earth you are talking about! The first time I heard about this at all was in the movie Latter Days, and I couldn’t be sure of that. I have to admit I had Mormons on my mind for a little while after seeing that one, (blush) 😉
With pleasure, Mr. Roberts:
I’ll be as serious as possible. The neckline on the temple garments Mormon wear used to be wide enough so that you would step into them from the neck. They were one-piece units (sort of the Union Jack long-johns but without the buttons). That meant your undershirt neckline would be a swoop in front AND in back. Hence: the Smiley could be somewhat discernable under your shirt. (Think of the swoop-styled t-shirts that International Male sold in their catalogue.)
Then came the two-piece temple garments. I heard many of my family and associates all rejoice (internally) with glee with this new adaptation in haute couture (Mormon style). They went from swooped necks to standard crewnecks (for some).
The biker-shorts undies: Mormons were wearing those long before they came into fashion. The hem needed to be as close to the knee as possible. It prevented some of my friends from wearing too short of shorts and relegated men and women who wanted to wear shorts a more modest length. Now…the popular universal style demands everyone wear shorts PAST the knee…you can thank the Mormons for that.
Oh…I long for those days when basketball players were man enough to wear shorts…especially how John Stockton looked good in them in his early days on the floorboards. If my family only knew the poster of John Stockton (#12 Utah Jazz) I had in my room was NOT because I was sports-minded. But, he did have cute legs in those shorter shorts back then.
Oh, oh…I treaded off the serious route there at the end. Sorry.
You know something, my temple experience and church experience is vastly different than either Aaron’s or Cowboy’s. I still wear the garments but it is deeply personal to me as to why. I understand why many decide not to wear them after coming out and I respect that decision. My experience (though not typical) is very different. I once dated a guy several years ago from Utah who couldn’t understand why I still wore them. He completely rejected me for doing so. Now if that isn’t hypocrisy I don’t know what is. Whatever happened to loving people unconditionally? The guy (he was cute too) definitely had baggage he had not let go of. I now realize how fearful he was and how (as I often did in the past) I feared my leaders more than I loved God and more than the gift (my orientation) that most of these leaders did not understand. I think that whenever we take the role of the victim we can never look in the mirror and see the things that we may be doing to ourselves with our beliefs about ourselves that create this shame, pain and the illusion of separation/isolation. Some people never can get past that place without a huge and painful struggle. To me one of the great things Jesus did was to shed light in the darkness and reveal the truth about who we really are and the fact that we are all the children of God. It’s about remembering.
My Temple experience was a deeply connecting experience to me partly because (as my mother once said at my mission farewell) “Benjamin has been a spiritual person ever since he was a little boy.” Well I haven’t been able to escape that even when I have tried to run from it as I did years ago. When I was a child I attended the Church of Christ which has it’s roots in the Campbellite tradition which is the church that several early Latter-day Saint leaders like Edward Partridge and the Pratt Brothers were leaders in. I passionately love the history of this nation (both religious and secular) and I feel deeply connected to the people of the past. When I later learned about the history of the LDS Church (general history) I went and dug deeper and deeper, looking at primary sources, etc. I felt like I knew these men and women intimately as though they were still living. That is how I learned about each of these people who were instrumental in the beginnings of the Latter-day Saint movement. I saw a somewhat different world than the one that the Church currently had created. Sure, times have changed yet even so I felt close to these people. You can’t imagine how excited I was when I learned of my ancestry who were associates of some of these people. I connect with these folks more deeply than I do the current leaders of the Church generally speaking. I miss more current (within the past 25 years) leaders like LeGrande Richards. I adore J. Golden Kimball even though I never met him as he died long before I was born.
My parents are converts to the Church even though my dad has LDS ancestry. My relationship with my father is incredibly deep and spiritual. I baptized my father when I was 18 years old and that was one of the highlights of my life. My father (incidentally) was a high ranking Mason prior to joining the LDS Church and his view of the Temple and especially the Endowment was that it brought the whole picture together and it made sense to him. If you can understand the language of symbolism and can connect to it spiritually it’s amazing how one can experience the big picture. It’s something infinitely bigger than our limited experience here. I read a very fascinating article in a recent Sunstone publication entitled The Grand Fundamental Principles of Mormonism: Joseph Smith’s Unfinished Reformation by Don Bradley. That article also resonated with me. I find it fascinating that two very learned Jewish leaders struck the spark that influenced much of the early Latter-day Saint temple experience. Joshua Siexes who taught Hebrew to Joseph in the Temple at Kirtland, Ohio and to the School of the prophets and then later Abraham Jonas who was the Grand Master who inducted Joseph Smith into masonry in Nauvoo, Illinois and was floored at how quickly Joseph understood the whole system. Both of these influential, highly educated Jewish men were a Godsend to Joseph as I see them.
As to the view and experience many Mormons have to their temple experience, pretty much everyone I have spoken with has told me that it is a very personal experience and some (including myself) have found it very connecting, resonating with tremendous love, peace and beauty. Some (including myself) have had problems with certain aspects of the experience but most of the experience is highly enlightening. That has been my experience personally and what I have both read and heard in person from various individuals. I think that had Joseph been permitted to live another year or two that women would have had a much higher and permanent priesthood type leadership role in the Church as there are still remnants of that found within their temple experience. Hazard me to ask but had women been given a priesthood role throughout the church’s history I wonder how the church as an institution would have approached GLBT issues? I personally think the church would have been far more inclusive toward GLBT people and we wouldn’t be having this discussion as it stands today.
Back to my garments since you asked. I won’t go into detail but I will say this. My garments envelope my body with a sense of peace and they serve as one of many connections to Jesus Christ for me. They also serve as a reminder for me to take care of my body and to be healthy. I’m a total health nut. I eat organic, work-out, am extremely active in summer and winter sports, have worked at a cooperative organic farm one morning a week during the summer, etc. I connect with the earth this way and that is very important to me. The temple clothing reminds me of my connection to my dad and when he passed away that connection was made very evident even years after his physical death from subsequent experiences I have had. That’s the best way I can describe them.
There are two important principles that my temple experience have taught me (among others) is to take care of this earth, protect the environment, treat all living things with respect, that they are spiritual beings and that the Creator loves them more than we could ever understand. I also realize that this simple theatre of symbolism has every right to change and evolve. Religion evolves as our understanding of truth evolves and progresses. We are all progressive beings. It is art. The modus operandi of the experience may change but the basic ordinance has never been taken away. I also feel connected to the entire universe during some of my temple experiences realizing that there are practically an infinite number of worlds similar to this one out there that God has created. I feel connected to everyone on this planet and those who have gone on (along with those who have yet to come here) when I am in this place.
People who don’t understand me or who I am have often totally misjudged me. It’s interesting because I don’t get a long well with the quintessentially “orthodox” Mormons. I am ok for a while around them and then they begin to grate on my nerves as they cannot typically think outside of the limited worldview (often judgemental) that they convey. I also dislike being around people who are extremely negative toward any religious faith including LDS. Being constructive in criticism is one thing (i.e. the recent PBS special on the Mormons is a very balanced expression) but making a religion the brunt of attacking jokes is something I have little patience with. It feels very shallow and very depressing to me. I find it interesting how some ex-LDS gay or non-gay associates I know can very glibly make fun of the Temple, Temple clothing, etc. but if anyone were ever to make fun of the clothing or mode of worship of Tibetan Monks they would go ballistic. That’s pure hypocrisy and it is divisive. I have a deep respect for the traditions of the various religions of the world. I see things in them that are of great value.
I think that the greatest sin that the LDS community and the Church as an institution commit against the GLBT children of God happens one little sentence, one little story, one little anti-gay publication, one little example of ostracism at a time. It is the language of abomination that is interwoven through the anti-gay approach that hurts, cripples and creates immense spiritual disability. That stifles spirituality. It harms us. I hate that in any religion (Christian, Latter-day Saint, Jewish, Islamic, etc.) as it is so devastating to each of us who are gay. It hurts families as a whole and as a result I believe it harms the entire faith community.
I watched President Hinckley’s funeral services today on KBYU and I was very moved by the experience except for the part about The Proclamation on the Family a document that was written by the LDS Church as a reaction to the push for same sex marriage. That document has many positive and spiritual teachings in it about the Family; however, it is clearly divisive in nature leaving GLBT people who wish to form unions/marriage out in the cold. It gives us no hope of acceptance and love but only of being marginalized as second class members. That document is simply based on a refusal to see the reality of GLBT people who form lasting, committed, loving relationships.
The Prophet has been named: T.S. Monson.
The big surprise: Dieter F. Uchtdorf is named into the First Presidency! He’s a young pup (relatively) at only 67. With him comes some international flavor to the mix.
(Note: Don’t interpret the above as being a snide remark because, quite frankly, I don’t care. I am just reporting the news.)
Cowboy,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m very much SSA, I’m out to my Church leaders, and I’m currently a member of the Stake Presidency. Does that makes you uncomfortable? Its easier to hate the Church if examples like me don’t exist, right? Extremes are so much more exciting…
RealNeal,
Thank you so much for posting here! I really appreciate your words very much. I have been getting some guidance (of all places) from Barack Obama in his campaign to leave no place uncharted, to go into so called “red states” as well as, so called “blue states” to get his message of unity and positive hopeful change out to Americans everywhere. I was so moved by Barack’s call to President Monson recently and his words of condolence to the Church. That did not stop there because Barack’s wife Michelle flew out to Utah and spoke to a ralley of people in the Salt Palace and she met with two of the Apostles, Elder Ballard and Elder Cook.
I love it when bridges crossing the divide are created and people from very different cultures and backgrounds connect. Barack inspires me to be more inclusive in my life and to be more open and to listen far better than I have.
I believe the Holy Ghost works through people in ways we never thought would happen yet it does happen. I think that our Nation is due for some major healing and we all need to reach out to one another and as Angel Tess in Touched by an Angel said about those who attack us or speak hateful things to us “throw love at them baby”.
The main reason I have written the things I have regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to share a little of my personal story and the fact that I deeply value my faith and those who are leaders there and that I still am a believing member even though I am gay (same gender attracted) or whatever label we typically Identify our differences. I think that the basic family unit is truly the foundation of a healthy society. There is a reason that many GLBT people wish to have families of our own and to create a family with love, safety and even children (especially through adoption) who are raised in a stable environment there. I believe this is a sign of the Gay community coming of age and maturing to the point wherein we are getting to be much more integrated into the rest of mainstream society. I think that we can either increase the speed of that process through our own collective attitudes and the way we treat ourselves and others; or we can impede it through our own reactive divisive response. It’s easy to get mad but it takes far more work to turn around and teach through the message of being and not so much preaching to people about GLBT civil rights, etc. I hope I can embody this much more in the future.
Well, RealNeal…I see you are from NARTH or you have strong allegiances to that group. And I’m so glad Mr. Benjamin Clark is happy with your bursting my bubble. That indicates where I stand with Mr. Clark.
Let me get some things cleared up. I want to know a few details that were alluded to but are still vague in my mind. It’s my understanding that only married men can be on the Stake Presidency. That would suggest you, RealNeal, is married though you say: “very much SSA” (just say: you’re GAY!). I tip my hat to your wife. She must be a real Saint.
The incident of having openly gay people in the hierarchy of the LDS Church is just rare. In fact, you seem to suggest there is lots of tolerance for gays in the LDS Church. But in my experience and with close buddies who are recovering LDS, there is next to none.
I don’t see any outreach programs at the LDS Church to its gay / lesbians Saints. There are no Gay Wards are there? No Gay-support functions because you’re not even to associate with other gays. True?
The condition for acceptance in the LDS Church: Mr. Clark has to live a monogamous, monastic, celibate life to even feel fellowship in any LDS Ward unless the Bishop is interpreting the rules in his Bishop’s Handbook differently than most. The welcoming I see from other Christians in certain other churches I have been in has been starkly different than in an LDS Ward.
Before I go further I have to mention something about hate. It’s just seething from my fingers right now. I know it’s a wasted emotion. It accomplishes nothing. But you can detect the hate in what I am typing? No? Let me relate something:
It used to be I would take each Sunday and systematically pick a new canyon to set out and do a hike. I know my neighbor is probably putting on his starched white shirt and a tie. I’m finding an A&F t-shirt or a favorite tank-top. My neighbor is slipping on a pair of slacks and I am finding my REI shorts. He is putting on his best, dress shoes and I’m packing my comfortable hiking boots with remnants of Moab red clay still clinging to the soles. He packs his mini-van with kids and wife and drives the 2 blocks to his Ward house. I get into my truck and take a leisurely drive up the canyon. In three hours my neighbor has gone through a bevy of lectures and lessons on being a family. I’m just about to the summit in Big Cottonwood Canyon and Lakes: Blanche, Florence and Lillian are within sight. I can almost hear in my mind my neighbor’s three kids commandeering the microphone and exclaiming their devotion to Jesus. I on the other hand, take a look at the beauty surrounding me. I feel like Julie Andrews in that meadow in Austria. Then, I look down at the valley below and
flip-the-bird.
To me the gesture is a release: To all those people who sanctimoniously tell me I have to live as a second-class citizen. To all those people who pressured a couple of my friends to commit suicide. To all those people who are apologists for people who will never apologize.
I don’t do that any more. I use that wasted energy to find new friends. Find new ways to share my life. Anyone want to go snowshoeing with me this weekend?
And if XGW would indulge me just a little bit more. Mr. Benjamin Clark and RealNeal seem to have a glimmer of hope for the LDS gays…much like a flickering light. Well, just like a candle in the wind, that light was extinguished last year when LDS high Apostles Dallin Oaks and Lance Wickman compared gays to mental retardation.
Cowboy,
If you feel that way then why are you even coming onto this site? Why don’t you find a website that is more in line with your way of thinking? You obviously must believe in some kind of higher power or being if you have attended other Christian Churches (I have too and love it) and felt a huge acceptance. Also what is it you get from posting here on this site?
I have experienced exactly what you have experienced in nature throughout my entire life and I have a deep connection with her. That is one of the main reasons I majored in Environmental Politics at New York University. I don’t even have to take my pickup to these places. I just go out my back door and either hike to them or (as it is now) I put on my nordic skis and ski out to the nordic ski track at Trail Creek Ranch.
I know what it’s like to hate. I know what it’s like to feel like you do. I know what it’s like to despise church leaders who are so judgemental and self-righteous that it makes you sick. I know what it’s like to come close to suicide. I know what it’s like to feel abandoned and not understood by church people. On the other hand I also know what it is like to forgive people and to speak to them about this. I know what it is like to see even people you thought could never change their self-righteous attitudes change in huge ways toward acceptance and love. I know what it’s like to see an LDS friend (a best friend and mentor) who at one time betray my trust and shun me turn around and walk into the premiere of Brokeback Mountain and show forth immense love and goodness toward me. That man is and was an incredible man who loves the wilderness, loves the cowboy way of life since he was a child, lives for wilderness, loves the Gospel as well. He brought the LDS Church and the wilderness back together for me in the many songs, the prayers and wonderful talks we experienced in the hunting camps in the back country. I also know what it is like to lose this friend like I did last Fall when he died in the backcountry of a heart attack as his wife and 7 children were devastated including myself. We all took part in his preparing for his funeral, preparing him for burial, building his casket and the actual burial as well. It is these memories that have given me strength to let go of my fear, my hate and my pain and replace it with love and forgiveness. I never said I had to even come back to Church in order to accomplish this because I know that I did not have to come back in order to experience this kind of peace.
To those people who “pressured your friends to commit suicide” I would most definitely talk to them, hold them accountable to the extend they are and explain to them that the judgments that they specifically made and the lack of love they showed toward these friends are not acceptable. I have a friend who did the same thing btw. It is this victim role that we take (it is our own choice too) that is so devastating and when we realize we no longer have to go down that road that’s when the freedom of mind and heart comes into the picture. My coming out to the extent I did was mostly to help individuals in the future to know that they never have to take that route that there are people out there like them who do accept themselves and who love that core part of who they are – the gift of being gay.
People who leave the LDS faith or any faith for that matter are making a personal choice and one that I understand and would never try to talk them out of, partly because I know of some people who have been led (even by the Spirit) to make such a choice, that it has saved their life. John Gustav-Wrathal is one man who was led by the Spirit in this way as a youth and he says that choice saved his life. His Gay Mormon Testimony story in SunStone Magazine discusses this journey. Everyone has his or her own journey Cowboy.
I incidentally don’t agree with NARTH, feel it is a stepping stone at best, destructive at worst. I also have seen people grow and learn to finally accept themselves through having gone that route and seeing that the program does not work yet they have gained several personal things from the experience. I know of people who have gone through Exodus who have had much the same experience. It helped them gain their bearings and move forward out of their self-hatred, out of Exodus and to finally come to that place of loving themselves for who they are. For me it was a process that took a long long time and when I realized how many others (even people very high up in the church like General Authority and Patriarch Joseph F. Smith) were also like me and then the light started to turn on and reality began to set in.
You and I are not the lone rangers in pain Cowboy. You and I are not the lone rangers in loneliness or sorrow. We are not the lone rangers in feeling persecuted or abandoned. I believe that people can and will change. Organizations are not just sterile entities. They are made up of people and people can and do evolve. You can create your own reality and your own world and surrounding yourself with people who are healthy like you sound like you are doing is a huge positive.
Cowboy, please don’t make blanket statements about what I do or do not have to do in order to be a member in good standing. You don’t know me and so don’t assume that you know who I am. Thanks.
I remember that Oaks and Wickman statement and those words were very ignorant in nature and they did not even begin to compare with the tone of Elder Holland’s words which came later. They obviously have a long way to go but even one step is positive. It always is.
Also Cowboy anger is not a wasted emotion. It is only wasteful if you or I get stuck in it and it doesn’t propel us to positive action. It just makes our blood pressure go up and harms our health. 😉
I’m not sure what this means. For the record, although individual authors and commenters may reveal their own biases and opinions, XGW itself is not committed to a single point-of-view, religious or otherwise.
I am curious as well; I can’t figure out how what cowboy said is at odds with XGW. What was the reason for your comment on this Benjamin?
Dave said:
Almost — we do have a few basic issues we would stand for but we don’t require commenters to share them (pro-gay, free will, civil government that doesn’t answer to any church or faith, etc).
Mr. Clark, I will try not to make blanket statements about you. Your life is far more an open book than mine. It makes it unfair of me to cast you in a particular light and judge you. I knew what I wrote would be construed as judgmental and I wrestled with re-wording but I was simply making a point: You have to be a monotonous (not monogamous!), monastic, celibate gay man to be in acceptance of your Bishop and Ward members. But, what kind of life is that? Is there love in that kind of dictum? Lonely is not an option for me in spite of what family, friends and some religious people tell me.
I’ve wondered why I do post here. The people here are far more read and erudite. I feel foolish and sometimes when I hit the “submit comment” button, I feel a slight tinge of guilt in publishing my vents. I quickly rationalize: 1) It’s not as if XGW were an important blog like Newsweek or L.A. Times and 2) I have to vent to relieve pressure…or I truly will explode with some sort of aneurism.
I will continue to read XGW. It has been immeasurably helpful to me and how I can respond to my family (and friends). Without XGW I would not have known the fallacies of NARTH. I would not have known the deviousness of some people in the ex-gay world.
But then, I will defend the LDS Church when I sense an injustice or an incorrect evaluation of its teachings. I try to use parlance that is understandable to those outside the LDS Church so that they can better relate to the topic. Nor will I tolerate obfuscation of LDS teachings to hide some shameful aspect of the religion. For instance: President Hinckley was not perfect but reading every newspaper here and watching endless hours on the TV about his funeral you think he was immediately Celestialized when he died. (I suppose all the newspapers and TVs in the Vatican said the same thing about the last Pope?)
My family (via the teachings of the LDS Church) has instilled in me some correct principles and it’s my choice to learn or adapt or reject those values. So, yes…it is MY journey.
Could that be why I have been invited to join some friends in Vegas later this month? (I’ll be the designated driver since I don’t drink.) I’m only going so to get out of the haze and cold here. (yeah…right!)
(comment deleted by Timothy)
Cowboy,
I’m glad you do post here at exGaywatch. I was asking a valid question (in response to Mr. David Roberts & Dave Rattigan) and you answered it very clearly and I appreciate it.
With regard the the Bishop/monotonous celibacy thing, we’ve been over that and I don’t think you quite understand where I’m coming from. I disagree with the LDS policy that one can be approved of God only if he or she is celibate if they are gay or lesbian and we have no hope for anything but “super chastity” throughout our entire lives as I have heard from some LDS circles. My bishop and other leaders know that when I find the guy I wish to spend the rest of my life with that I am going to make a mutual commitment tantamount to marriage. I’ll go all the way up to Canada if I have to and do that. I know people (John Gustav-Wrathal is an example) who are in committed relationships who attend Church regularly and participate so far as they are allowed. They making a difference with their wards and stakes. Just because they choose to do that does not mean you are expected to Cowboy. The argument I have been trying to get across is that there are exceptions to the black and white rule that many (if not most) gay Mormons or former Mormons tend to believe. It just aint always so.
I think that we have some crossed wires here Cowboy. We’re mostly on the same page believe it or not when it comes to these crucial issues. I’m glad you post here and I hope you continue to for many different reasons.
Mr. Clark and Cowboy:
I’d love to hear a bit more from RealNeal. His use of the term SSA indicates to me that he is not an openly gay man serving in his church. He is a man who is SSA and not gay and living a straight life. As cowboy points out, it is not quite the same thing.
Mr. Clark and Cowboy: I’ve been following your dialogue with interest as an outsider, who only knows the Church and its attitude towards gay people from news reports. But I would have to say cowboy’s POV seems closer to reality. I have never heard one positive thing about the Church and gay people, nor has it ever stood up and say the mistreatment of gay people at the hands of organized religion is wrong. But at the same time, I don’t doubt the mr. Clark’s experience has validity. Even the MittHead was pro-gay when it suited his politics. I’m sure there are Mormons who do not buy the Church line, who have a different experience of gay people, and who are, in fact, quite supportive of gay people. But in a hierarchy like this one, they just aren’t saying so for fear of…
The Church is nothing more than the sum of its individual members. Change enough of the members, and the reality will change as well. Remember what happened when Utah wanted to join the Union, or when Mormondom’s racist position on non-white people was no longer tenable. Each person who is involved in the church has his choice to stand up and change it.
I’d love to hear a bit more from RealNeal. His use of the term SSA indicates to me that he is not an openly gay man serving in his church. He is a man who is SSA and not gay and living a straight life. As cowboy points out, it is not quite the same thing, and certainly not the same thing as a partnered gay man serving his church in that way and being accepted as an equal to the ‘tro’s. I’d call it a bisexual, myself.
Ben in Oakland, You’re very astute. You hit the nail squarely on nearly every point you made. Thanks. And, you’ve got a lovely sense of humor when I read some of your posts on the other threads. I tend to think humour (spelt that way for the elitists that may be reading this) is necessary even in highbrow stuff. Shakespeare wrote comedy. Mark Twain was a brilliant writer and he was very humorous.
I am curious about RealNeal too. How many of his type/ilk are there? Many years ago, my family strongly suggested I get married. They pointed out several examples of gay men who I knew who were married, with kids and living the ideal Mormon family lifestyle. They shut their mouths when I asked: “Oh guess who I bumped into at the Trapp** the other night?” With a glint in my eye I would say the name of this fine upstanding gay Mormon father and it immediately became a non-topic at dinner. Oh well…my family wouldn’t understand. Especially if I told them he was wearing leather gear, he had a barbed-wire tattoo*** on his bicep and sporting a shaved head. True story.
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In every instance of my family (and friends) telling me about a gay LDS man living the ideal family life, it/they didn’t last. One wrote e-mails to me about being miserable in guilt because he had a tryst with a guy each time he goes on a business trip. Another one is in a childless relationship with his ever-understanding wife but he has now requested going on vacations separately. The wife gets the shaft in practically all of these marriages. And the LDS Church has said it did not suggest gay men get married to cure their homosexuality****. They may not have said it…but the peer pressure and implication about sincere repentance proved to be one big factor in why a lot of gay LDS men are married*****.
.
.
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**A private club for members which caters to the gay populace in Salt Lake City.
*** Prophet Hinckley forbad LDS men from getting tattoos.
****I’m trying to find documented proof of this counseling.
*****I will concede: Precise statistics lacking.
Ben in Oakland you might ask yourself what reality is regarding the LDS Church and their approach to GLBT issues and you might ask yourself what kinds of changes have happened in comparing LDS policies from lets say the 1960’s to those of today. You might even pick up a copy of Dr. Mike Quinn’s fascinating book entitled Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century Americans: A Mormon Example. That is a very thoroughly researched discussion of GLBT history within the Mormon Church.
Obviously Cowboy has had terrible treatment by the typical (stereotypical) Utah Mormon crowd. I have a good friend who is straight who is very active LDS, dated women down in Bountiful and several of the young women’s parents said that even though he is LDS he isn’t from Utah and they encouraged her to date a young LDS man from Utah. My friend is from Wyoming. This is the kind of crap I hear about more often than you realize. None of this cultural garbage has anything to do with my faith or my activity with the Latter-day Saints here in Wyoming whom I love very much and who love me as they have expressed that love on numerous occasions. None of it has anything to do with the loving and kind experiences I have personally had with the few General Authorities (or the Prophet, etc.) I have had experiences with.
I used to be in a different boat and was very depressed and sad all the time but I learned that I create my own reality and I could change that through my personal one on one relationship with God. I think that Gay mormons often have a two edged sword problem. We awaken to the sense of our differentness. We don’t know how to deal with it. We look outside for some help and understanding anywhere and it is often not to be found (at least it wasn’t when I grew up during the pre-internet age). We look at Church literature and find statements that are ignorant and disparaging and divisive. We then begin to internalize this turmoil and turn it on ourselves. Then we see it coming from family members who have been brought up in this mindset. It’s not just a Mormon mindset either. It is cultural. It is still the majority of Christian Church’s who do not accept our orientation as innate. We then expect people to treat us this way even when we may or may not have spoken with them personally or read what they have had to say because they might be LDS or Catholic or Evangelical. I think that many gay men project some of this negative expectation out there because we have been so conditioned to expect it while growing up. I know I used to.
I’ll tell you one thing. I deal with people one person at a time and I put God first above everyone and I trust Him and if someone doesn’t like me or they are hateful that’s their issue and I hope that my actions won’t validate their hate.
I have noticed that Cowboy and a few others have not heard what I have had to say about my experience as well as that of several others I know because it does not match their own and they cannot see how it possibly could be any different.
My argument is that there is no excuse for the marginalization by the LDS Church, but by heaven I think it’s time that we all take responsibility for our own life and happiness as opposed to taking the victim role. If anyone needs support and help there is authentic help out there in the form of counselors from the APA and other mainstream counseling organizations as well as awesome support groups who are extremely helpful. I went to an awesome LDS therapist (I got lucky on that one) when I lived in Salt Lake who used to work with LDS Social Services and who has his own practice. He helped me save my life and I know of others whom he helped in the same way as well. He was an exception when compared to the Dean Byrd school of NARTH. He helped me begin the process of learning to accept myself. His greatest concern was my happiness.
I feel somewhat ignored when I made several clear and concise statements about my initial foundational argument and where I stand. I continually hear the typical black and white cookie cutter statements of Mormon Church hates Gays and so you need to tell the Mormon Church to go stick it tirade. I frankly got extremely sick and tired of hearing that from gay people down there when I used to hear it almost daily in Utah. It was about as depressing as the other extreme of listening to extremist judgemental zealots. That is one of the main reasons I decided to move away from that place. It’s just not a stable or healthy environment if you are constantly bombarded with negative self deprecating influences as I often was.
When I came back to Utah to visit from time to time I often would visit the Stonewall Center. One day I saw a very cool flyer entitled LDS/Gay you are not alone? It was put out by the LDS Reconciliation group. You could not believe the extremist rhetoric that was written all over those pamphlets as they were vandalized by people in the Stonewall center who really had no Idea what Reconciliation is. The things that people do out of fear knows no boundaries. Whether people are LDS and straight, gay, Evangelical, etc. people will lash out at any perceived threat without using their intelligence that God gave them.
I have to tell you that I learned that if you take on the victim persona (as I did for far too long) then no matter what happens you will still continue to believe you are a victim of the person, family, organization or group whom you feel victimized by whether the threat is real or not. I believe that has been the downside of the gay community for a long time as it is many minority groups; however there has been an immense burst of growth I have seen over the years where gay people and communities have thrown off that negative way of thinking and have moved past that. The beauty and positive awesomeness that shows from these people is remarkable. Cowboy if you ever get a chance to read the book entitled THE SECRET by Rhonda Byrne I cannot over estimate it’s value. It’s about the law of attraction. Very profound.
One of my goals is to make the LDS Church and other communities in which I am involved an increasingly safer place for GLBT people. Educate, educate, educate. That is how my ward and my stake have made tremendous progress is through being educated on these issues one person and one group at a time.
Ben in Oakland I also don’t think RealNeal will post here too much because since when you click on his name it connects you to a link called LDS-SSA which is about being a “struggler” (in other words a VICTIM who is struggling with his inborn orientation pretending it is not inborn) I don’t think he will get much out of this site. I hope that I am wrong though and that he comes back here and sees the reality of what is going on out there in the world and finds tools of knowledge to help him to be happier and more self accepting. That would be a great thing.
While I am at it I want to share and contrast these two quotes with those who are reading this posting. Take a look at the LDS-SSA link that RealNeal provides. Look at the sites mission statement.
The subtle issue I see here is that this website is making a blanket statement that if you don’t support the premise of this website (the statements of G.A.s and other leaders about homosexual orientation as well as denying the right to date, court and marry another of your gender) then you are somehow not living a Christlike life. Cowboy, here’s the big foundational concept I have been trying very hard to articulate and I think I have (as Hillary Clinton recently said) “found my voice” although after hearing her speak at the recent primaries she seems to have literally lost her voice. LOL
The problem with the Church as an institution’s view about homosexually oriented people is that the Church’s (and by extension people like RealNeal and his webcast) doctrinal interpretation about us is extremely black and white. When a man who is living in a monogamous, loving same sex relationship/marriage for many years and who even has been successfully raising children in that union; is judged the same way as a guy who goes out and has sex in bathrooms (LDS Idaho Senator Larry Craig comes to mind here) and in the bushes in the parks and/or is stepping out on his wife, there’s something very wrong with this picture. It is very unjust and truly wrong.
This is an issue that is going to come up on many many occasions in the future with the LDS Church and so long as many Gay or Lesbian LDS continue to view their orientation as something to struggle against the process is going to be much longer and more arduous before things change. When I say “change” I mean change to a place of a more sure and equal footing for Gay and Lesbian LDS among the LDS heterosexual majority. That may be a tough one to deal with doctrinally because (just as with Evangelicals) they will have to reinterpret many of their former interpretations of scripture. Where Mormons are in a better place is that all LDS scripture is completely silent on the gay issue. Only the Bible is where the source of controversy comes from as far as scripture is concerned.
The LDS Church does not want to deal with those who are in a committed, monogamous same gender marriage that is validated by a state (i.e. Massachusetts) partly because they really don’t know how to deal with the issue fairly. They will have to make some major changes in consciousness before that happens and that is a painful struggle. Ever hear of the Buckley Jeppson story? Here is a gay man who was married in Canada to his same sex partner and his local authorities asked him to “resign” his membership. Buckley said “absolutely not I am a Mormon and I believe in this Church and wish to continue being part of my faith.” As the issue came out in the news the Church leaders there finally decided to just do nothing. He and his partner go to his local ward on a weekly basis now. Now in my book Buckley and by extension his partner are heroes. They force the leadership to have to deal with this and eventually that can affect change as it has in the past. John Gustav-Wrathal and his partner who live in Minnesota and go to church regularly are another similar example. It is organizations like Reconciliation that are priceless to GLBT people who wish to continue in their faith within the context of accepting themselves for who they are.
Take a look at this website and compare and contrast it with RealNeal’s LDS-SSA link from above.
You be the judge as to which one is more in line with the tone Christ set in His ministry. LDS Reconciliation not only uses the name Gay and Lesbian but also shows that a gay or lesbian person can be a spiritual and Christlike faithful person. The LDS-SSA website (like NARTH, Evergreen, etc.) teaches GLBT LDS people to deny their innate being and believe that this innate part of their being is something to struggle with (most likely throughout our entire life). I do not for one minute believe that is what the Savior really meant or ever taught. It is an incredibly liberating thing to reclaim your spirituality as a gay or lesbian person. It’s a very empowering and awesome experience to embrace your whole being and to prove to those who think otherwise that they are simply mistaken but you love them anyway.
Does it come with pictures?
Mr. Clark, I’ll type more later when I put some fires out today. I have some thoughts on Reconciliation.
Point of fact: Larry Craig is not LDS (Mormon). And Mitt Romney dropped his Idaho Spud “friend” like a Hot Potato!
Are you suggesting I see a shrink? (I hear a resounding chorus of “YES!” from everyone reading this blog. I understand, though: It is a universally accepted fact that cynicism is an innate product of the gay gene.)
Hey Cowboy,
I shouldn’t assume that because Larry Craig is a Conservative Republican and he is from Idaho that he’s LDS. I was told by several people who live in my neighboring state that he is LDS but that’s a faith demoting rumor I guess. 😉
I cannot understand why people still call a psychotherapist a “shrink”. That’s so 70’s passe. I have been to a therapist off and on since the late 80’s until about 3 years ago. I have gotten a lot of grounding and momentum through this process. I highly recommend it to anyone who even just wants to get some perspective. I shopped around for a good one and found her. She’s great. She has recommended several awesome books to read and that is how I got aquainted with people like DePack Chopra and other similar authors.
It’s also good to vent like you have been doing but it’s far more productive to vent to real live people you know and trust and especially one who doesn’t have an agenda except that you be happy. That’s what I have gotten out of my therapist. She is priceless.
There may be some truth about the cynicism being an innate product of the gay gene; however I think it’s nurture as opposed to nature – it’s the environment. Anyone who gets kicked down by society is going to be pretty cynical wouldn’t you say? I remember reading a book several years ago by (I believe a gay couple) Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen called After The Ball. They wrote about how gay youth who have gone through immense cultural and societal rejection learn early on how to lie and how they turn lying into a science. I think we are moving out of that as gay youth come out earlier and earlier and really deal with the tough issues early on.
With regard to the LDS Church I wish that every single Gay or Lesbian LDS person would come out of the closet and write a book about their experience growing up gay, etc. It would be an earth shattering experience and would be very beneficial for the LDS community to realize the truth about what it is we go through.
It’s tragic to see people like RealNeal go to such lengths (many evening marrying a woman and having kids) to be accepted by their families and church leaders. I told several young high school kids who were asking questions of a panel that I was chosen to be on in Jackson at the Premiere of Brokeback Mountain; that when I learned to differentiate between the voice of God and the voice of my family, friends and Church leaders that I finally found the serenity and truth I was longing for. I said that in a way that I was guilty of Idolatry because I placed my Church leaders above or on par with God when they are only men. I said that though I believe they are called of God that they are not God and there is a major difference. I also have learned that just because they are called that does not entitle them to be right or inspired all of the time. The only Church leaders I have ever trusted are those who are authentically humble and who really want to understand and who trust me. They are (unfortunately) in the minority of my experiences. Most came from more urban areas in California and New York. I had one Stake President who interviewed my former partner Jason and I when we were living in California and though he gave us the Church line of “chastity” (with regard to our relationship) he kept struggling and trying to get something out that he had a tough time articulating. He finally took a deep breath and there was a moment of silence then he said “you are supposed to be together.” We left his office as dumbfounded as he looked when he had said those words. He was a great advocate for us during the next several months before we moved to New York City.
I have a gay friend who had a witness in the Temple in Los Angeles that God was helping him find his lifelong companion (another man). It was reiterated time and time again to him until after he asked just to make sure my friend said he felt frustration because he said God had already told him the answer. He told his Bishop and Stake President about this and they were dumbfounded yet they had every reason to believe him as he was very devout after he joined the church as a young man of 18 when he was living in New England. In fact his Stake President organized a Gay and Lesbian LDS group in Los Angeles that was there to be of support to provide a safe and accepting place for believing Gay and Lesbian Latter-day Saints. Do you know who shut that group down back in the late 90’s? Good old Dean Byrd (now the president of NARTH) came down to L.A. and came to one of the meetings and then returned to Church headquarters and the excuse for shutting it down was that because the Church was supporting the campaign against same sex marriage in California that it wouldn’t look good for the Church to have such an organization meeting in California. There was a big fallout from that whole event, not to mention, the California initiative passing with funding from the LDS Church. That is something that always should be brought out in the open for the public to see because it is a check and a balance to the manipulation that has happened in virtually every major religion I know of. Things like this must be exposed immediately as soon as they are discovered because it’s just dead wrong.
From these and several other experiences I began my journey of trusting the Spirit above all else.
Mr. Clark,
I think the question that comes to mind: Why Reconciliation? Why Affirmation? Why even Gamofites? (google it if anyone is curious). Except for the some very funny t-shirts they sell at the gay-pride festival…I don’t see the need (for me, anyway) for the organizations: Affirmation and/or Reconciliation. What do Buckley Jeppson and John Gustav-Wrathal need in the LDS Church? Can’t they find their religion within another gay-affirming Church?
I threw out the Rule Book long ago. I’m re-discovering the freedom to determine the principles and morals I feel are conducive to my happiness. After a relationship that went bad, it was actually refreshing driving in my truck and after pounding on the steering wheel one time to exclaim: “I’m not a bad person!” I don’t need any more angst and I certainly don’t need the hobbles and silly restrictions I would have in the LDS Church.
Just as you find a need to work at reconciling with the LDS faith I find a need to tell gay Saints that there is life after Mormonism.
The only real angst now is dealing with an orthodox LDS family. And leaving Utah (and family) is certainly an option but I’m resisting it. Changing jobs and relocating is dicey in this economy. If I had followed my dreams I would have been in California long ago. But perhaps fate dictated I stay closer to family because my instincts knew my wild-side would have resulted with me…well worse off or possibly dead.
This part was typed after I just read your reply:
It is still a very(!) foreign concept for me to grasp: That an LDS God would suggest there is some man for me. I’m not being flippant when I say this: But the words: being the branch of the tree that bears no fruit and should be pruned…is echoing in my head.
But your stories are interesting.
Hey Cowboy,
Sounds like you do need to get out of Utah and away from all of this stuff for a while in order to clear your head and sift through stuff. I know how anger and rancor toward family, church, community can create a toxic stagnant situation until a decision to leave or get out of that environment. I don’t know how old you are but you sure sound like a young intelligent man.
I don’t look at God as “an LDS God” as much as I look at God as much more inclusive than puting that kind of label on God. If you had read all of my posts here I believe God is the God of the Evangelicals as well as the Muslims, Jewish people, etc . The reason I don’t just go to another faith that is more “all inclusive, etc.” (again if you had read the other postings I left) is deeply personal and is in my DNA in a sense. I don’t feel like discussing it on this blog at this time to be honest.
I may write more when I return from Boston this next week. Please keep up the great work Cowboy.
🙂
Benjamin
This is somewhat a tangent, but does pertain to LDS, Mitt Romney, and possibly anger against GLBT. I’m a bit thrown by Dr Dobson’s statment that he would vote for Romney, an LDS person, rather than McCain. Just how is hatred of a ‘common enemy’ coming into play … almost like war… where a notorious Evangelical Christian will cast aside ‘theological differences’ in order to destroy the GLBT… where JONAH is casting aside differences in order to destroy the GLBT… where reason and dialog are being cast aside… I guess I am in shock. Is the guiding force in our lives the scriptures of the eternal Christ or eternal God? Or is it the political expendency of a temporal viewpoint?… I am greatly saddened by it all.
I was raised in a very, very mormon family. When I heard Hinkley had died, I wasn’t too sad. Of course I got the emails from my parents lamenting this ‘wonderful, kind’ man’s passing.
I decided to just try and let it go despite the hell I’ve been through because of morons like this guy. Had it not been for such goofballs I would not have been through so-called reparative therapy in my early 20’s.
The only shame here is what they put some of us through.
Chris
It’s far from the first time, unfortunately…
Thank you for the link, Eugene. It was quite an education reading the Exgaywatch comments, and then linking to a Christianity Today ‘live blog’ archive that had many of the same sentiments.
I spoke to my wife, Bon, about all of this last night.
She said, “You keep thinking that Dr. Dobson is about Christian ministry. Caryn, I listen to him on the radio, and he seldom even quotes the Bible. He is not about Christian ministry.” We then reached a conclusion that Dr. Dobson is about ‘saving the American family’ by any means possible.
Thanks for allowing the tangent…. Caryn
Morning…
Just came across this post, and thought I’d add my two cents. And while I’ve read most of the comments, I did skim a little here and there… so I apologize if I missed something crucial.
First, on change: the LDS church makes all changes gradually and — except for a handful of announcements from the President of the Church — incrementally. Not long ago, you could be reprimanded or even kicked out of the Church for even admitting to homosexual feelings. That’s changed… but depending on where you live and a number of different variables, it’s changed faster and more completely in some congregations than in others. Today, it’s possible for gay men and women to remain in the church — some with more latitude than others. It’s complex, of course, but for members of the Church, it’s familiar.
An example of such change, outside of the realm of sexuality, is the ban on blacks holding the priesthood. Before the 1978 proclamation that rescinded the ban, Elder Bruce R McConkie — a high-ranking member of Church leadership — had repeatedly said that he thought the ban would never be rescinded. In a speech, though, that he gave after the proclamation, he said simply: “the president of the Church has spoken; forget everything I ever said on the matter”.
I like that the church changes so slowly, as it allows it to mature in an orderly fashion, “line upon line” (to borrow a phrase from scripture). It’s not convenient, for me, but there you go.
As for the issue that’s been such a big deal in this thread, of President Hinckley’s comments about welcoming gays into the Church, I’ll just share my personal experience.
I was attending BYU in 1995, when I came-out to a friend and shortly there-after came-out to my bishop (the leader of our ward or congregation). I had been attending therapy for depression related to family issues, and my bishop suggested I bring my homosexuality into the discussion (my therapist was a part of the in-house counseling center at BYU and a professor in the college of psychology). I did, and my therapy evolved. I never felt compelled to change, nor did I think that change was even possible. I was happy with who I was — though I was challenged by the difficulties it posed at the time — and was more interested in learning to deal with difficulty than in becoming straight.
Both my bishop and my BYU-employed therapist were fine with that.
As the years passed, I moved around, and came out to each of my bishops, in turn. (Mormon congregations are geographic in nature, so when you move, you’ll likely move into a new ward.) Each of these men listened to me carefully and in love, and ultimately relied on my counsel as to how to proceed. I held numerous callings (the lay-clergy aspect of the church means that most adults in a ward are tasked with a specific job, a “calling” if you will). I taught Sunday School and other classes and participated in ward leadership through my callings as ward clerk and ward executive secretary. I enjoyed full fellowship in the ward in every way conceivable…
From my first awkward steps out of the closet at 23, I’ve traveled the inexorable path to full disclosure. Today, at 36, I am an out gay man and an active and important/influential/engaged member of my ward. I’ve specifically told my bishop and stake president (my bishop’s “boss”) that I’m gay… and any member of the ward that would casually know about my dating life also knows that I’m gay. I hold an important calling and teach on occasion. I’ve been asked to participate in activities with our youth.
While I date actively, I am not sexually active. I remain celibate because I value my membership in the Church. I look forward, though, to a day when the Church encourages me to find a partner and marry. It may not happen in my life, but I am confident that it will happen.
My own life very much reflects the positive influence that President Hickley had on the Church in this area, and I don’t wish him good riddance, but happy trails and fond reunions with his wife and parents.
A straight ex-cop wrote this in our local paper:
This is part of a humorous account of a certain Kansas Church sending its members to protest the funeral of G.B. Hinckley.
https://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8210106
Also, in the news
https://www.affirmation.org/media/2008_02_09.shtml
I guess a group called Affirmation (a sort of Mormon Soulforce) has sent a letter to the successor of G.B. Hinckley.
The letter says (in part):
Apparently they want to have a face-to-face chat with the new Prophet. This would be extraordinary if it happens.
And some questions for Silus Grok:
You say:
You don’t get many 2nd dates do you? Why put yourself in a dating scene if you’re not really serious about a relationship. I hope you’re not being a tease. I hope you are dating to satisfy some curiosity? Or do you like to tempt yourself and see how much of a thrill it is to get to third base with a guy? Please don’t.
I (again) need some answers from reading your experiences in the LDS Church. You said:
Except for marriage, right? You must then belong to a Singles Ward? Are you invited to singles functions? If they knew you are dating men would you not feel a little bit uncomfortable in attending a single ward and participating in their functions?
Being a ward clerk and ward executive secretary is hardly a leadership role. And if you taught Sunday School: was it clear to everyone participating that you were gay? What class did you teach?
I’m still a little fuzzy with “important/influential/engaged” member of [your] Ward.
Tell us EXACTLY/SPECIFICALLY what kinds of important/influential/engaged activities you do? I get the feeling some of your participation was when you were still semi-closeted but now what do you do when you are fully “out” to the members of your Ward?
I’m gay. I’m in a bishopric. I was in a bishopric in my last ward. My bishop knew. I have a friend who is in the stake presidency who is gay…
I have written a lot about being gay in the church, all elsewhere, but it always continues to amaze me how perfectly unwilling many gays are to accept the many good things about the church and how unwilling many church members are to accept gays. I suppose it’s all born of fear and festering old wounds.
Wow! Too many comments to address individually. Here’s some general replies.
Out – I don’t identify as Gay. SSA is about the attraction. Gay to me describes a life-style. I don’t participate in the Gay life-style, so I don’t use Gay. My sexuality is only a part of my identity, and certainly not the most important one. I am first and foremost a son of God. I’m out to the people who need to know, and if anyone asks, I’ll tell them, but I don’t think its an issue I need to emphasize. My straight friends don’t walk around telling people they’re straight.
Calling – not all callings in the SP require you to be married. There are more than just a pres and two counselors, and that’s where I fit in. For what its worth, I’ve been a counselor in several Bishoprics, on the High Council, and serve as a Veil Worker in the Temple. There are no secret “blacklists” for SSA members or any callings a straight person can hold that we can’t.
Marriage – no I’m not married and never have been. I know lots of SSA people who are married and who are happy. Also know others who are not. I think if your spouse knows about it before hand and is willing, why not?
Narth – never been a part of it or any other reparative group. Some people find it helpful – more power to them. Its an individual choice to participate.
Cowboy and hate – if you’re “seething with hate” the Spirit certainly won’t be with you. Hate hurts the hater. Hate comes from fear. What is the source of your fear?
I don’t feel in any way “shackled” by the Gospel. Living the commandments frees us to fulfill our full potential as sons and daughters of God. Sin is what shackles us and separates us from Him. I hear so often the arguments among us that you have to “be true to yourself”, and that our needs can’t be met in the Church. The attitude is “MY will, not Thine be done! My needs come first!” Yet the Lord clearly told us we came here to be tested and tried. I like these words in Mosiah 3:19 –
“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. ”
There’s that key phrase in there “willing to submit to ALL things” the Lord subjects us to. So are we really willing? Fill in the blank on this sentence:
Am I willing to submit to _______ for the Lord?
Examples could be: sickness, famine, pain, persecution, poverty, an autistic child, depression, stress, blindness, paralysis, attending Church rather than driving in the country, celibacy, and yes – even Same Sex Attraction! The list is really endless. Yet I think how we fill in the blanks to answer this simple question in our own life is what determines our Eternal destiny. Are we willing?? Will we SUBMIT?? Its a matter of faith.
Regards,
Neal
Honestly, I know nothing about any of these situations where people say they have leadership positions when I have seen the exact opposite in the church. Maybe it shows something that is a fault–if different stakes, bishoprics have different ideals and rules, then it shows the church may have a serious problem. There is no unity. I live in So. Cal., and frankly every church around my area, which is heavily Mormon, would not accept a gay person in leadership. Also, gay people have to go through a lot to become a member and renounce their homosexuality. If you have a gay history and go on a mission, you generally are denied or placed in a heavily monitered situation. Gay couples must split if one person becomes a member.
Finally, the issue is about whether or not the church is homophobic. Let’s see–if you are not married in a heterosexual marriage, you CANNOT actually participate in the highest part of glory and heaven. So, if you are celibate all your life, you will just be someone serving a heterosexual couple. Also, as we know, the church teaches Christ was heterosexual and married Mary Magdalene. If we are to follow in Christ’ steps, we also must be heterosexual and married.
Frankly, this discussion of how non-homophobic the church supposedly is is a joke. Either you are a reformed LDS person, which does accept gay people, or you are whitewashing church action and history. The fact that Hinkley’s eulogy had a “pro-family/anti-gay” message tells you the church does not accept you.
I lived through it. I have helped members live through it. The church is often known as the most homophobic church in America (check the Religious Tolerance site).
When an apostle states he would rather his child be dead than commit sexual immorality (which includes homosexuality), you cannot wipe away the homophobic history and current elements of the church. Again, I had to deal with the church and higherups when I was excommunicated. Did you know they asked me about fisting and various nasty comments? My experience is not singular. Any checking on the web will show that some of the “pro-gay” comments are not true. The church will not change their position on homosexuality especially when they are funding anti-gay measures all over the West. Sure, drink the kool-aid that makes you believe the church is there to help you, but don’t fool people into thinking that the church has any interest in the gay person.
Aaron,
Sorry you have such a myopic view of the Church. I think you need some clarifications. Homosexual behavior is not acceptable, nor is any extra-marital sexual behavior. You evidently found this out when you were exed. Homosexual attractions, on the other hand, are not a choice and therefore are accepatable. Its the behavior that is the problem. As to those who do not marry in this life, they will be given the opportunity to be sealed to someone in the next if they live the commandments (See Oaks/Wickman interview on lds.org/newsroom). So yes, we CAN achieve the highest degree of glory.
As far as “gay” leadership – no, someone living a gay lifestyle will not be given a position. Someone with homosexual attractions who lives the Gospel standards certainly may. You probably wouldn’t hear about it, though, since they usually don’t announce your sexual orientation when they ask for a sustaining vote in Sacrament meeting.
Neal
Neal,
You say you will be sealed in the next life: To a man or to multiple women? Oh…that’s right, you feel you have an affliction like a retarded person (see also your reference to Oaks/Wickman). God will make you perfect in heaven.
If you can describe someone as myopic I think Benjamin Clark might take issue with that.
So…perhaps riding in the country on Sunday is too hedonistic for you. How about if you work at a hospital on Sundays…because, of course, they don’t close on Sundays…that’s hedonistic too? I would rather do that than sit next to someone as sanctimonious as you in the pew in your Church.
Oh we all have fears. You too, Neal. I have fear of living a lonely life and never finding love again and becoming a bitter old queen. But, most of all, I fear becoming like you.
Aaron,
Have you noticed how some commenters here are still vague about just how out-of-the-closet they are and what leadership role(s) they have. There could be thousands of closeted gay men in high mucky-muck Priesthood positions and they may be happy with that choice. But that in no way signifies an acceptance of gays.
As someone else has pointed out: The LDS Church is morphing into more accepting of gays (though glacially slow). I doubt until you see the Mo-Tabs singing Disco and jiving to rap music will you see much more acceptance than you see now.
We have seen a shift in the LDS Church, though. It no longer is debated that being gay is a choice but now they shift the burden on gays for being horribly afflicted. However, without even a mention of apology for its past treatment of its gay members. (Notice how they ignore the Affirmation group.)
**The Mormon Tabernacle Choir
Neal–First of all, you are incorrect. When I was exed, I had never had a gay experience. I had simply told the church I was gay. I told them that I had never tried anything with anyone. Yet, the council of 12 asked me numerous inappropriate questions about what type of sex gay people have. The stereotypes were staggering. You can be exed for a declaration of being gay.
Second, you cannot acheive the highest area of glory unless you are married (in fact, Joseph Smith said you have to have several wives to do so). I don’t know a single Mormon who does not know that to be a god and have your own place, you are required to be married. Yes, you can go to the celestial kingdom, but you would simply serve if you are single or unmarried.
Cowboy, you are right! I find people being very vague and disengenous about their experience. The term SSA is something that stands out. That suggests how they feel about their status and feelings.
I am the gay spouse in a mixed orientation marriage and currently serve as a counselor in a bishopric. Unlike others, my bishop does not know about my orientation; I’ve had no reason to disclose it since I’ve never acted on my attractions.
I love the LDS church – I love being a Mormon. But, I do agree that the LDS church is NOT where it needs to be in regards to gay saints; although, I do feel that we are a lot closer than we were 20 years ago and that we are moving in the right direction. But, we are a long way from being able to declare ourselves as a gay affirming church.
There is a distinction between the LDS church and LDS culture. LDS culture is largely homophobic – which is why I choose to remain deeply entrenched in my closet (my wife shares my closet). Historically, the LDS church has been homophobic as well. I love Spencer W. Kimball; but, frankly, some of his statements regarding homosexuality come across as hateful – and he did not distinguish between attraction and behavior. His book “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, which contains some of those statements, is still in print today and is often referred to by bishops and stake presidents who are working with a member who has same gender attraction (the politically correct term in the church). But, I’m grateful for leaders like Gordan B. Hinkley who have extended an olive branch.
I am also grateful when I hear accounts, as shared by some here, where LDS leaders are accepting of those who have same gender attraction but are living as the church teaches. But, let’s be honest, those are isolated cases. There is little doubt in my mind that I would soon be released if it became known that I like guys more than girls. I’ve worked with the youth for most of my adult life; but, I expect that would come to an abrupt end were my orientation to become public knowledge. I’ve even heard of cases where a membership record was permanently notated to indicate that they were never to have a calling working with the youth. It only takes one homophobic bishop to add such a notation; but, it requires approval by the first presidency to remove a permanent notation.
Bottom line is that there are legitimate concerns about how the LDS church deals with homosexuality. Some of us are able to put those concerns aside and remain active in the church. For others, these concerns of sufficient magnitude as to result in removing themselves from the church and the LDS culture. By the same token, there are legitimate reasons to stay in the LDS church. For some of us, those reasons outweigh any concerns we have.
But, the net result is that we’re all a bunch of guys who have the hots for other guys (or girls who have the hots for other girls). In the words of Rodney King “Can we get along? … Let’s try to work it out.” The reality is, we need each other. If it weren’t for gay pride and gays risking their lives fighting for equality then homosexuality would still be regarded as a mental disorder; but, if we all jump ship and abandon the LDS church then what hope do we have of ever seeing change?
I think you’ve both proved your own ignorance with the last couple of comments. I leave you to wallow in your sour grapes.
Neal, your comment means that you do not want to actually answer the comments about place in the afterlife and excommunication. You know that we are correct. Sure, someone can hide and pretend he or she is someone he or she is not–playing with terms like SSA helps to do that. However, you will never be treated fairly in the church if you are single (SSA or not). You will always be treated with disrespect after a certain age (does special interest come to mind?).
RealNeal,
I have enough intelligence to know when you and others are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of some readers here on XGW.
Aaron,
I was meaning to tell you: I am so very sorry of your experience in a church tribunal (court). I do not relate to the wrenching ordeal because I haven’t had to go through the process…but the stories of the experiences my friends and a lover endured first-hand had profound affects on their lives. And each story was varied in the nastiness and spite shown by some of the lay clergy in these councils. I can see why so many are delivering letters to the LDS HQ to have their names removed from the church’s membership lists. They want no chance for the LDS Church to hold a court…even in their absentia. It’s brutal and manipulative experience I would only think happened in medieval days.
OK, one last time.
No, you are not correct; nor does it mean I don’t want to talk about it.
If you read comments from a number of General Authorities on the subject of marriage, they clearly state that those who do not have an opportunity to marry in this life – including SSA people – will be given the opportunity in the next. This is mentioned as well in the pamphlet “God Loveth His Children” Go to lds.org and look this up yourself under the subject of Same Gender Attraction. Its there in black and white. Do your homework.
As far as being treated fairly – that’s really a matter of opinion. I think you’re just being bitter here. I’m loved and treated well by all my Church family. I’m included on all levels and with many families and singles. Your experience may be different than mine, but it is certainly not universally applicable.
As for excommunication, its difficult to say what happened in your case, since I wasn’t there and we only have your side of it. However, the Church does not excommunicate people for having same sex attraction. If you didn’t have a “relationship”, then there must be some other reason why they took that action. I’ve been in a number of Church councils as a member of the High Council or in Bishoprics, and each one is different and specific to the particular person. Much of the outcome depends on the attitudes of that person and circumstances that brought them to the council in the first place. I have never been in one that was not conducted in a spirit of utmost love and concern. If you had a bad experience (and I’m sure there have been some), there is an appeal process you can go through. But to say the Church excommunicates people for homosexual attractions is completely inaccurate. I know married SSA people who cheated on their wives that were not excommunicated. The outcome is a very individual thing.
Ok, now I AM FINISHED with this ridiculous thread. I have other things to attend to.
Neal
Cowboy,
And it’s obvious you have already become a bitter old queen! Very, very bitter!
RealNeal said:
RealNeal, please keep comments respectful or at the least civil. These sentiments are not appropriate at XGW.
Neal, you may not respond, and I am tired of this too. I am not angry about my experience, and no, the only excommunication reason was being gay–even though there was no sexual things that went on. This happened in 1990, so maybe some things changed. However, the marriage thing is somewhat correct that you mention. The church states that if you are not married, you will be married if you already were in life and just not templed. Also, members are largely exempt–if they had a chance to marry and did not that is a bad thing.
Here is the the statement about marriage: “The Mormon Church teaches that if a couple marries according to Mormon ceremony, and each lives an obedient life, they may attain godhood at the resurrection. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches,
[Y]e shall come forth in the first resurrection; . . . and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths . . . (and you) shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to (their) exaltation.” (132)
The passage concludes, “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue. . . . Then they shall be gods because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them.” (132:20)”
Is it true that a gay couple, if they (or an individual) are to be baptized, must split and never see each other?
Is it true that the church has special interest events for people over a certain age who do not marry?
Is it true that people who are not married are somewhat pressured to marry–to the point of disfellowship?
You also state that SSA is not a choice, so if you are created that way, isn’t it cruel to assume you will be forced, after death, into a relationship with someone who you would never be attracted to in life?
If the church did not have a problem with gay people, why did it create the Values Institute to combat homosexuality? Check out https://www.exposingmormonism.blogspot.com/
Cowboy, thanks about your comments. I actually have pride that I stood up to such sad treatment. Like I said, my Mormon path is not something I look back on badly. I lived through it, and I am happy. I am cool with it. And you are not a bitter queen as Neal stated…:)
It seems that Abelard Enigma contradicts some of what RealNeal has said. There are permanent notations in the Church records; ala: a “secret “blacklist”? Who gets to see these records? How do you know to make an appeal to the First Presidency if you know nothing of this permanent record? With a lay clergy, is anyone able to read these records and affect influence on someone’s career?
Mr. Enigma…we’re all seeking what is comfortable for each of us. It would be extremely difficult for me to be in a long-term relationship with a woman because I could not perform…ahem…what a heterosexual woman would and should need. That’s not an option for me. The only other option (according to LDS rules) is to stay single and bide my time until I die. To some people they have no problem with that. I can’t because (maybe) I have tasted the fruit of what a caring, loving and fulfilling sexual relationship means. Apparently, that is where some people feel they are stronger than me. They also feel I’m hedonistic for having fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship.
It’s a touchy (pun intended) subject. I know it would be cataclysmic if every closeted gay Saint suddenly came “out” to their wives and church authorities. It would devastate some livelihoods and some innocent people might be hurt. I understand and I can’t volunteer a recommendation as to what the LDS Church should do. I have a suspicion they already know the magnitude of this same-gender attraction plague that is in their midst. Something will have to be done.
And when I see that the next leader in the Mormon Church is not willing to talk about it and recognize a group of gay and gay-friendly people. I can’t sit in a church where I feel the members and its clergy don’t understand my plight and dismiss me as being weak.
Aaron,
I appreciate your thoughts. I have some issues with self-esteem. They are born of my circumstances and where I live and how I cling to my family. That’s my comfort zone right now…and I feel Mr. A. Enigma understands too. At least he writes what I think we both have been trying to say and I sense “truthiness” in what he types.
There are permanent notations in the Church records; ala: a “secret “blacklist”?
The permanent notation is not a bad thing necessarily; it is intended to keep pedophiles from working with children; but, it can, and has, been misused.
Apparently, that is where some people feel they are stronger than me. They also feel I’m hedonistic for having fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship.
Fortunately, not all of us feel that way. Some of us have made different choices. I believe the choice I’ve made is the right one for me; but, it would be arrogant for me to suggest that the choice I’ve made is the right one for you or anyone else.
And let’s be honest here – most, if not all, of us have had fantasies or longings for a same-gendered relationship at one time or another. It’s just that not everyone is willing to admit it. 🙂
I think I am going to stop on this thread. I respect the church even though I had some issues with it, and I like many of the people in the church. I don’t think anyone wants to intentionally hurt anyone else in the church. The church’s history of dealing with gay people is less than stellar, and it is good if they are dealing with it and changing attitudes. I have no interest in the church. I will never rejoin it because I don’t believe in the church or its belief system. However, it is a part of my life–a part of me in many ways. I have no intention from stopping someone from deep belief in the church even if they are gay. It is a sad, hard road. When people around you are married and have children, but you are single, it is not something I envy. Good luck to all in your endevors.
Cowboy, I would love to sit down some day and talk. Maybe one day our paths will cross–you never know. You are a fascinating person, and we would have tons to discuss my friend. I will mosy along now.
Had a great trip to Boston. My former partner directed Angels in America there and it was an excellent production. That is one of my favorite shows of all time.
I wish everyone on this thread well and I hope things continue to progress forward. It’s important that we ALL stay strong in the grass roots political process because we truly can affect major change in society through this process. The LDS Church (as an institution) is also a microcosm of the greater society so eventually as society changes (society has a lot of growth to accomplish in general) and is far more accepting of GLBT people things will improve.
Even RealNeal has his place inspite of his apparent self-righteousness and inability to imagine himself in a same gender relationship that is an extension of his own family including parents and siblings, ward family, etc. RealNeal is at least showing himself as a guy who has gay feelings and his congregation knows this. Just be patient with this man because as time moves forward and he falls in love with someone of his own gender when Cupid shoots his arrow into this man’s heart his tune will change. 😉 The fact is you cannot reject this part (yes it is not all but it is a very crucial and important part of you) of who you are without rejecting your soul, your very spirit and an innate God given part of yourself.
RealNeal might think about turning it around and looking at what it would be like if straight folks were given the same challenge as he has accepted. How long would a General Authority even last under such a command? Can any of them imagine what it would be like to feel attracted to their wives prior to marriage, falling in love with them and not being able to even so much as hold hands in public with them and having to promise to never “act” on their attraction? That is the reality of the situation.
Things are bound to change in the Church, however, I believe society has got to change even more dramatically in our country and other nations as well before we will see the dramatic general change that we are talking about here.
Interesting dialogue we all had. And I didn’t even get to Caryn LeMur’s comments! I certainly learned a few things. I want to apologize for some things I might have said that were offensive. I might blame it on overdose of Mtn. Dew and how a caffeine high can make me type things I later regret. Forgive me…but it’s my only vice. (I get terrible caffeine-withdrawal headaches if I don’t have a swig once in a while.)
Yep, Aaron…we could have a chat and compare notes. I think the day might come when we will see President Benjamin Clark sitting in one of those big red comfy chairs on the stand at the LDS Conference Center. (He will be the one wearing polished cowboy boots.) And I might be sitting at the console to the organ. You never know.
So…as I tip my hat to all on this thread. I let the reins slack and rest on the horn on my saddle as I gently poke Bessy in her flanks and ride off into the sunset. Fade to black.