From John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Meanwhile, today the Southern Baptists of North Carolina will be voting to expel from their fellowship any church that has a single gay member.
The proposed guidelines would bar openly gay church-goers from being baptized, accepted for membership, ordained or hired on staff.
I don’t think I need to offer any commentary.
Say, someone like Ted Haggard (married, closeted, arguably homosexual) belongs to one of these churches and is found out. Will they have to expel him? Do Baptists do excommunication? What about heterosexuals that are pro-gay-rights, do they have to leave the church too, or maybe just sit in the back pews?
Just to play devil’s advocate (pardon the saying) but many of these anti-gay churches feel this is “love”. They feel that they cannot take on members who are currently not just engaged in what they call sin, but those who feel pride in that sin. That is what they see and believe. As we all know, I do not agree. I am trying my best these days to see the other side’s points and understand them. I think it is important to do that to understand were they are coming from in their decisions.
Their move is wrong. Yes, I too think it is against Christ’s teachings but I think that I do “get it” as to where this is coming from in their beliefs. If we are going to change hearts, minds, and policy we need to start to be understanding of these people and how they think and why. Some of us, from our experiences in these churches, already know why they think this way. I know that from my own experience growing up Catholic and going to both a Catholic grammer school and Catholic High School.
On the other hand, some of us do not understand, even if we have been members of these churches, some of us will just never understand and don’t want to but, if you want to be understood, then you need to offer understanding. If you want to be accepted, then you need to be accepting. While I would like these same people to take this advice, I do advocate and pray we, as gays and lesbians, take the high road.
I can’t speak for everyone, but if I belonged to one of these churches, I would take my butt out of the pew, and my pocketbook out of the church of the collection plate. It’s just that simple.
They claim they want to reach out to people, but their actions speak much more succintly than their empty words.
For heaven’s sake, walk the talk.
Some very good points, Joe.
I would say this one thing to those who think condemnation and exclusion is love: Jesus said others would recognize this love and know that you’re one of his followers. If others are having a hard time seeing your actions as “loving” perhaps it might be time to reconsider. Jesus tended to take the point of view of the outsider over the religious establishment.
But I agree we have to know those to whom we wish to communicate and not just treat them as stereotypes (though they do make it difficult with this sort of vote).
I remember years and years ago, when I was a teenager, a friend of mine was called out by his preacher in front of the entire congregation. He left the church and never went back. My dad, who is a minister, heard about the incident and went to talk to my friend. He told him that he was sorry that the preacher was so misinformed and he urged him to not turn his back on the Lord because of one man. Joe said that he never turned his back on the Lord. He said that the Lord turned his back on him. This is how these horrid so-called men of God make Gay men and women feel. When people need them most, they tell them that God doesn’t want them. How can they call themselves Christian at all? Because to be Christian is to follow the teachings of Christ. I don’t think any of these people even remember what Christ taught.
Joe,
Although I love the opinion you offer here, let’s just say that the loudest and most anti gay religious communities, have very little to say or in any way want to punish the heterosexuals who are doing much worse.
There are all kinds of things that religious texts say, for example, that blame women for the ills of the world.
The fall from God’s paradise…yadda yadda.
And as I say, the brutality against females in not just our culture, but that of other cultures who hide behind their religious law.
Even if for a brief period, women’s status, educational and political opportunities was running apace with their male counterparts.
Iran in the seventies, for example.
Once the mullahs were back in power, all hell brooke loose.
Religious dogma is no excuse for ANYTHING. Especially from people who live in this country and are allowed to pick and choose what religion, how and to what degree they can practice it.
They are mistaking that freedom for the belief they can dictate the terms of how ONLY GAY PEOPLE will live and no one else, no matter how many crimes have been committed. HOw many children are abandoned to government care, or how many divorces and remarriages another citizen has, the crusade against gay people, no matter what successes and sacrifices have been made are still undeserving of basic rights and protections.
Not even the sacrifice of this particular hostility against gay people is worth giving more attention to those women and children who suffer because of hetero male excess.
Hetero males made up all the laws, and will selectively enforce them when they see fit.
Being gay is the only ‘sin’ that hetero males know they won’t be tempted by.
So therefore feel no such compassion for the gay identity and compromised of freedom.
Note that few Christians here in the US would go somewhere where they will risk death, imprisonment, segregation or illiteracy. It’s fine for those who are born to those countries that do that to Christians.
It’s not especially brave to take advantage of a place that gives you the opportunity for such freedom and expression, then you turn around and abuse a singular group, over their ‘behavior’ for it and ignore all the science that says this is normal and healthy for people who are gay.
I’m losing patience with this attitude. Gay children are subject to cruelty and gay adults have lost the most precious things, or at least are at risk to because of this religious vanity.
We in this country, are charged to cooperate with our fellow citizens who are doing the RIGHT things. Like getting an education, caring for their loved ones and contributing to their communities.
There are no more excuses Joe. Now a lot of gays and lesbians have been put behind state amendments that threaten a lot more than their ability to marry.
The people of faith with the right moral compass, understand the country they live in, the beauty of diversity and those things which are UNIVERSALLY felt, known and which we can all share in responsibly.
Forcing someone to comply to a freely CHOSEN religious path that even our country won’t make legally mandated says a lot about the sincerity of those who claim religious conviction against gay people.
Because you can bet, they REALLY don’t live their lives so strictly themselves.
Nor would they want to if it was the law of the land.
It’s just a lot easier and has little challenge to give gay people a hard time of it.
That doing that does nothing good for anyone doesn’t matter.
But I WILL hold these folks accountable for the way they ignore far more urgent business and how they complicate things more than remedy them.
With all due respect, I think that we are missing the point on the Fundamentalist obsession with homosexuality. It is as much rooted in politics and economics as it is related to their actual concern about sinful behavior.
30 or 40 years ago the primary focus of fire and brimstone wrath were heterosexuals who engaged in premarital sex, had children out of wedlock, got divorced, or worse yet got remarried.
They can’t be anywhere near as harsh on people engaged in these heterosexual “sinful” behaviors or their megachurches would be empty, they would lose their influence as well as their funding.
So, they go on to pay lip service to their objections to premarital sex, etc, but they have a far more forgiving attitude to those who do have a child out of wedlock or get divorced.
Much time is spent talking about the hypocritical actions of Haggard and those like him on the issue of homosexuality. I though see in these preacher with an anti-gay obsession as being equally hypocritical in emphasizing a “sin” (their term not mine) that conveniently applies to a minority of their congregations, rather than focusing their self righteousness on the far more common misbehaviors of their congregants.
Well, there go all the choir directors / organists.
[/tongue-in-cheek]
John,
I think you’re partly right in that they have had to turn away from condemning heterosexual sins because they would drive their congregants away. But I think the focus on homosexuals gives them an Other to point at and say “see how much better we are than them?”
One blogger put it: The big reason for the anti-gay fervor within the hard right is that it puts down a moral floor. Normal … Christians can always say “I’m a sinner, I’ve succumbed to temptation many times and I probably will do so again — but I’ve never done anything as disgusting as that. And I never will.”
Meanwhile here in Canada the United Church (merger between the Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists) are blitzing the air with gay positive ads.
United Church Ad
Dan
You might recall that within the last year, the Judicial Council of the United Methodist Church (one of the more liberal mainline denominations for most of the 20th cent.) ruled that pastors can exclude persons from membership based solely on sexual orientation. It created a huge stir and the Council of Bishops issued a statement condemning the ruling. This week I learned that a young gay Christian friend was told by his pastor that he could not become a member of the United Methodist Church he attends because he is gay. He had attended classes and completed all membership requirements, and had to sit in the pew and watch as all the other persons from the class were welcomed into membership. I’m writing letters today to his pastor, district superintendent and bishop in response to this injustice.
So, it’s not just the Southern Baptists.
I’m a United Church of Christ pastor – thank for including the link to our ad campaign, Timothy!
Relgious nonsense filled with fear vs. the Gospel. Ultimately, miraculously, the Spirit is able to cut through the crap to find the seeker.
Former Organist,
KJ
It’s times like this that I’m glad I’m a Methodist 🙂
Seriously, I’m outraged by this and I’m more or less in the “Side B” camp. Are they going to expel churches that have members who lie, covet, cheat, get angry, lust, you-name-it. Those would be some empty churches…
Jay,
It must be particularly frustrating for side b gay Christians. Not only are you deliberately deciding to live in rather difficult compliance with the literal words of Scripture, but now you have folks like Alan Chambers and the No. Carolina Baptists deciding that “identity” is sin.
Personally, I’m side a. But I respect the faith and conviction that goes into being side b. It’s a shame (as well as being contrary to Scripture) that some religious leaders are so focused on their culture war against anyone who isn’t a clone of themself that they are willing to condemn Christian men and women who are sacrificing far more than they will ever be asked to give up.
Resentment towards a church can be so deep…
After learning about and observing some experiences about gays and their religious upbringing I have no desire to attend any organized church…even those flying rainbow flags as a sign welcoming my ilk to their pews.
I have heard about church tribunals/courts which emotionally scarred some of my friends. I have heard testimonies about church-sponsored ex-gay interventions that prescribed barbaric treatments. I have witnessed blatant condescending attitudes and outright contempt towards me by my church-going neighbors.
I know this is a generalization but most of the time I feel a majority of churches just do not have a good working relationship with gays. You can site exceptions to the general rule but nearly all main-stream religions do not view gays in a favorable light. The Pope is bashing gay rights and questioning the need for any gays to be welcome in their clergy. Some Baptists are closing the doors to gays. And I probably will never see a Mormon Ward even remotely consider having gays decorate and cater a reception for an LDS “sealing” (that’s their term for marriage).
Why even try stepping over the threshold into any church…if you are gay? Maybe to take pictures? Ooooh and aaaaah over the pricey artifacts? Admire the artwork? Revel in the architectural marvels inside and outside?
Pffff…you can have your church. I worship the great outdoors.
cowboy,
You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. And many of them are well deserved.
However, I have to disagree with this sentence: You can site exceptions to the general rule but nearly all main-stream religions do not view gays in a favorable light.
From time to time it’s nice to remember that just as gays are not all stereotypes, neither are denominations. The following is based on my current understanding of where churches are officially and in reality – obviously, it may be flawed:
Entirely welcoming churches (of course some congregations are not so welcoming):
Unitarian Universalist
Friends General Conference (Quakers)
United Church of Christ (Congregational / Pilgrim)
Reform Judaism
Reconstructionist Judaism
Officially welcoming – but with some dissent or with some reservations about marriage or leadership:
Episcopal Church – welcomes gays but is still debating (loudly) about official gay marriage and gay bishops. Their major hurdle to full inclusion is interference by foreign branches of the Anglican Church, primarily in Africa and Asia
Presbyterian Church, USA – supports civil unions but still in disunity about religious blessing and positions of authority
United Methodist Church – divided about gay pastors and marriage
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – divided about gay pastors and marriage
The Swedenborgian Church – OK, I just threw this in for fun because I liked the name. Nonetheless, depending on the minister they will bless same-sex unions.
Welcome in the pews but don’t share your views:
Roman Catholic Church – welcomes celibate gays but under the current Pope has increased its focus on “you must be celibate and closeted” and decreased its emphasis on “you are welcome here”. The Church’s attitude seems dependent on the whim of whoever is the papal see.
Reformed, Bretheren, Mennonite Churches
Jehovah’s Witness
Not welcome in our church, thank you very much:
Southern Baptists
National Baptist Convention
Pretty much all the other Baptists
Pentecostals of all stripe
Mormons (Latter Day Saints)
Church of God in Christ
Othodox Churches (of various ethnic affiliation)
Churches which are still finding where they are with the issue:
American Baptists – officially not welcoming – but being more liberal than the Southern Baptists this policy seems to be a bit fluid. There do seem to be some welcoming churches within this group, but some have also been expelled in some regions.
Conservative Judaism – gay rabbis and the blessing of same-sex unions may become allowable in December.
African Methodist Episcopal – this very liberal denomination has conflict with their supportive social agenda and their prohibitive doctrinal beliefs.
I’m not going to try and discuss other countries much other than to say that in Europe, inclusion of gay members seems less controversial. In Scotland, the new head of the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) supports gay marriage. In Canada, the United Church of Canada is fully supportive of gay inclusion.
Wikipedia has a good – but limited – summary.
Mr. Kinkaid,
But, still, those factions of gay-friendly churches are vastly in the minority.
I feel so guilty in reading your response to my rant. You certainly took the time and I truly appreciate your energy. I need to get out more and explore options other than what I see manifested in my environs. Nearly all my co-workers belong to the dominant Church here and I was venting a bit. I just need to stick my ear-buds in and listen to Rene’e Fleming before I pound on the keyboard again.
Okay…I would be curious too about that Swedish church you mentioned. If not for meeting a cute blond, then, at the very least: they serve delicious meatballs at their church functions?
But, maybe, we could start a topic about how some disenfranchised, religiously-oriented gays go off the deep end. Recovering*-Mormon gays certainly take up drinking caffeinated drinks and some start smoking but I mean some recovering religious gays are found to develop an unhealthy drinking habit, doing meth and participate in unsafe sex. Why? Is that a form of protest? Is it a coping mechanism?
OH…I’ll do a wikipedia on that.
*Recovering is a better word than Ex-
Kinkaid should be Kincaid. (sorry)
But, still, those factions of gay-friendly churches are vastly in the minority.
I think that depends to some extent on where you live. If you are in Alabama or Utah, the dominant demoninations are not very welcoming.
But it isn’t quite as dire as it seems. About a third of American Protestants worship in a denomination that has officially said that gays and lesbians are welcome as members in the church and give some sort of accomodation to their relationships. And even the Catholic Church, the nation’s largest denomination, is making (somewhat ridiculous) efforts at finding a way to keep gay Catholics within the church.
I project that the trend will continue towards “Christ’s extravagant welcome” rather than away.
But I agree that this is all good and fine for those who live in Los Angeles and have literally hundreds of welcoming congregations to select from (probably a dozen or so that are all or mostly gay congregations). When you live in certain parts of the country it doesn’t matter how open the UCC is or whether the local Presbyterian minister refuses to say the word “marriage” while blessing your same sex union. If you step in church in some places, the odds are that the minister will rebuke you from the pulpit. By name.
Amazing that they want to expel the gay members of the churches. When are they going to expel the remarried adulterers?
11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
I repented of an adulterous remarriage,
https://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
There is double standard in the church.