In a recent post on the Exodus blog, Randy Thomas responded to the GLSEN quote covered in a recent article here.
Wait just a minute… did they just say that identity is a choice and indirectly infer that some people claim orientation is a choice?… That identity is a developmental process? Wow.
We at Exodus know that people struggling with same sex attraction did not choose to struggle with same sex attraction and yet people can choose by what facet of their lives they want to identify with. For myself it is Christian.
Wait just a minute… did he just imply that one can identify as gay or Christian, but not both? He has chosen to identify as Christian rather than gay?
Also, while people don’t choose to struggle with same sex attraction, we certainly can choose to pursue re-orientation or “overcome” said attractions by pursuing holiness. Healthy heterosexuality is a by-product of our journey toward holiness that occurs on varying levels for different people.
Again, one can strive for holiness but only as a method by which to “overcome” their same sex attractions? Heterosexuality is the by-product of a journey toward holiness? The implication is quite clear, holiness and Christianity are at odds with being gay.
Even so, to go from a gay-centric relational paradigm to a Christ-centered one is HUGE change regardless of sexual orientation shift (or lack thereof.)”
Well that seems to remove any doubt, Randy indeed seems to be saying that one can be either gay or Christian, but not both. We would like to thank Randy for his (somewhat belated) honesty on this subject. We have always suspected this was the common view at Exodus, but it is refreshing to finally hear someone admit it.
Now in all fairness, that last line gives us a better look at his thinking. This is what Randy was reading into the GLSEN quote, hoping that it would substantiate his, and Exodus’, own confusing views. He is saying that it is more important for one to stop “identifying” as gay and start “identifying” as Christian, even if one’s attraction to the same sex never changes. With all the pseudo-psychological, pseudo-spiritual language with which they wrap themselves, the good people at Exodus are confused at times about what they mean. However, it seems clear that they see being gay and being Christian as opposite ends of a spectrum.
Sexuality is just one of many components of our relational lives and we choose to place it in proper context and not limit our identity to be based only on who we are sexually attracted too or to what we may be feeling at the moment.
Now who do you suppose it is who views the lives of gay people as being only about sex?
It is my hope that the gay activist community will open their minds to tolerate a morality they may not agree with in recognition of the fact that not everyone who has same sex attraction are limited to the above list of gay centric optional identities.
It is our sincere hope, Randy, that the exgay activist community will open their minds to the fact that they do not have a corner on morality, and that you will no longer treat gays as though they were necessarily immoral just by being who they are. We also reiterate that, in spite of your smug sarcasm, we have always believed in the right of an individual to live their lives as they see fit. In most cases, historically, for the gay person this has not been easy to do. Social pressure and even violence by those with prejudice and hate in their hearts has made it necessary for many to live a lie, pretending to be heterosexual when they were not. The heartache and sorrow this has caused can not be calculated. This began to change some 40 years ago and from the fringes of the lifting of that prejudice has come a movement determined to sustain it in another way, by using those who are confused about their lives as fuel for their own ideology. It is that with which we disagree.
Who is limiting the options of others? Who says that one can not be gay and still be Christian? Who says that to be holy one must strive to be straight? Who tells the world that being gay is unhealthy, unhappy and unnatural? Who gives the homosexual but one choice? That would be you, Mr. Thomas.
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. (John 3:16 CEV)
Healthy heterosexuality is a by-product of our journey toward holiness…
I think that I want to puke.
So, “holiness” leads to “healthy heterosexuality”? Does this guy even know any heterosexuals? LOL!! So Brittney Spears’ 48-hour first marriage is more “holy” than my friends Mark and Dwayne who will celebrate their 30th anniversary in December? Would that make her current marriage to K-Fed even more holy?
What about all those “holy” heterosexuals whose marriages fail – OVER 50% OF THE TIME!! What about all those “holy” heterosexuals who bed but don’t wed – and leave a trail of unplanned, bastard children behind them?
What about a “holy” heterosexual marriage in which the man beats his wife and/or his kids? Is that more “holy” than a loving, committed, monogamous same-sex relationship?
Give me a break, Exodus. You guys are drinking waaaaaaaaaaay too much of your own Kool-Aid.
healthy heterosexuality
He might just as well have said “good penmanship using the right hand only”
You know none of these professional ex-gays really believe you can be Christian and LGBT.
Most of them might be cagey enough not to be caught saying it when they can be quoted, but I have yet to meet *any* RR person who believes a gay person can be Christian.
If Randy thinks what he calls Christianity and being gay are mutually exclusive, fine.
But let’s check to see if his brand of Christianity is the better trade. I’m going to use as a measure a test that was established about 2,000 years ago and compare it to Randy’s political activism.
(From Matthew 25)
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Perhaps Randy’s Christianity and being gay are opposite ends of the spectrum.
Most gay people I know contribute to AIDS charities, help those in need, and give generously of their time to better the world around them.
Every adoption agency knows that if you have a crack baby, problem toddler or special needs kid then you hope and pray that a gay couple comes to adopt because they’re pretty much the only ones who will give this child a loving home. I watched a special on the Florida couple who were raising three HIV infected babies. When one got older, he was discovered not to have the virus. The good anti-gay Christians in Florida responded by trying to take this teen away from his only home because he was now “desireable” for a “normal” family. Meanwhile the state of Oregon begged them to take two toddlers that no one else could help. So these men, now in their 40’s took on two more little ones to engulf with love and care and a sense of family.
https://www.lethimstay.com/loftons_bert.html
It seems so often now that the gay community does what used to be called “Christian charity”. Yes chuches give money but the hands-on dirty work seems so often to fall to the gay community, the minority communities, and others just a bit less “important” to perform.
Meanwhile, the ex-gays lobby to take away health insurance, block adoption, stop protections for gay kids in schools, and generally be as cruel as they can think of towards the lives of actual living breathing gay people.
If I had to choose between Randy’s version of Christianity or being gay, I’d go with the criteria that was given by Jesus.
To be Gay…and Christian?
This topic came up on the Charisma Online Forum several months ago.
In this post, I made mention of the folks here at ex-gay watch.
I had to chuckle a bit when I saw this entry at the bottom of my post later:
[pro-homosexual links removed by Webmaster]
Well, that says a lot.
It is unfortunate that Randy, et al, cannot see the truth and irony in the fact that it is because of our Christ-centric faith that we are at peace when called to come out as GLBT Christians. I am frequenlty left baffled as to why fellow believers can not see how dynamic the Christian church can be and who can be changed by Christ’s presence in it when believers are encouraged to be truthful and authentic.
It is a fact tha there are those who seem unable to reconcile their spirituality and sexuality, and who am I to say that that is not part of God’s grace in the individual’s faith walk? It would just be nice to see that courtesy returned, but I don’t think I’ll hold my breath.
WebMD reports:
Thomas sure seems to like “Christ centric heterosexuals” provided that label their same-sex activity creatively (and dishonestly).
But if a Christ-centric gay person happens on by, Thomas appears ready to storm the Pearly Gates and stop God from letting the soul through.
And God forbid if you’re Jewish, liberal Protestant, or Buddhist….
Blogger David Shelton is writing an eight-part series of articles on the Bible passages that are misused by people like Thomas to cast aside gay people whether they’re “Christ-centric” or not.
Well, I lost my faith, it sorta got ripped out of me over the period of a month about three years ago, and yes, at the time that hurt a lot. It meant a separation from my family and extended family in my parish. It meant I lost a link with them in that belief. But I have gotten used to it. I see now that spirituality is very much a part of the human animal, and so I am making do without my Christian faith now.
Can someone be gay and Christian? I have a difficult time with that. Mainly because I have of late come to agree with the more fundamentalist viewpoint that homosexuality if accepted nullifies or even falsifies the theology behind Christianity. I don’t see any way around it. Sorry to say.
What I see in the ex/post-gay crowd is the same hypocrisy I see in the rest of Christianity which speaks out against GLBT persons. First of all the theology has very plainly institutionalized homophobic bigotry. That institutionalized bigotry allows a Christian believer to sublimate his own bigotry (or self-hate in the mind of the ex/post-gay people) within the theology and turn around and believe they are showing only that Christian love.
Yet all those lies that are told such as by the ex/post-gay crowd are a product of that same bigotry in their theology. To me such a thing is hypocrisy, which is a clear sign of bigotry.
I’m sorry, but even though I was a devout believer for 47+ years and attempted to do the ‘will of god’ as was dictated to me – or perhaps because of it, I am now quite soured on Christianity in any form.
Can someone be gay and Christian? I have a difficult time with that. Mainly because I have of late come to agree with the more fundamentalist viewpoint that homosexuality if accepted nullifies or even falsifies the theology behind Christianity. I don’t see any way around it. Sorry to say.
Lij – would you please expand? I think what you’re saying is that homosexuality is a challenge to the basic teachings of Christianity like no other issue. Unlike many here, I think the Bible is very clear about homosexuality. Never mind that Jesus never mentions it – Christianity is based on the writings of Paul, not on Jesus’ sayings. I don’t see anyway that someone can accept an inspired scripture and believe that we can just ignore a few passages.
I left Christianity a long time ago as a result.
Bill- First, I admire you for debating with the people on that sight. I read just the page with your linked comment, and I could barely take it. I used to argue with those types of folks often, but many of them are too far down their road to be helped, I think. I mean, to suggest that gays paid a movie to have a happy ending for a gay character and then to deny that gays are every happy like that is just too much.
About your deleted link, I found it funny that that link was deleted in a post in which you were responding to someone accusing gays of not accepting “diverse” opinions like the ex-gay one. So someone tells you gays are too closed-minded to opposing view points, and when you respond, they alert you that you cannot offer a link to a pro-gay website. How telling…
gordo said: Lij – would you please expand? I think what you’re saying is that homosexuality is a challenge to the basic teachings of Christianity like no other issue.
I don’t think homosexuality is unlike no other issue concerning Christianity. I think it is just as important an issue as say the absolute determination that a 6 day creation and Noachian flood is to fundamentalists.
What I came to see is this. There is no ethic for homosexual person elucidated in the Christian Bible except, ‘don’t do that!’ And many of us know that celibacy is not an option because we do not look forward to being alone. It quite simply is not what our human spirit has need of for fulfillment. So where is the truth in a theology which does not so provide an ethic consisting of workable morality for all its members.
None of the Abrahamic religions do so. Heck most all of the philosophical system/religions of the world do not. As I see it these philosphies are all reaction of sentient man to the realization of his own animal instinctual responses, a transference of the instinctual into higher cortical brain functions such as memory and reasoning.
I think it’s time man understand that animal part of his thinking and in doing so, start to be the human he claims to be. Therefore religion isn’t necessarily the way. Religion is too bound up in the animal that man claims he is not. So in my philosophy (which just might be as flawed for the same reasons as any other, LOL) religion is a derivation of the animal that religious man claims to be so far above. Perhaps you may see what I see in that, a hypocrisy; although one which has been slowly grown into by man. It would seem the realization – not the destruction – of that is the beginning of the “true” humanity to which we all aspire.
Eh… or something like that.
To those caught up in “I reject Christianity because…”, I suggest that your rejection of Christianity is for the same reason that fundamentalists reject you. A focus on the words/dogma/authoritative positions of religion rather than a focus on mystery and wonder of God.
If you view Christianity (or any other religion) as the “right” thing to do or way to believe, you are destined for disappointment, disillusionment, or rigidity of thought. However, if you view Christianity (etc.) as a means to know God (or the divine), then you can use it as a tool and a guide.
When some folks work out, they view the exercise program as the goal or way of life rather than a means to a better healthier life outside the gym. They spend all their time in the gym and view their life through that focus. They work out not because of what it accomplishes but because they identify as “a person who works out”. And there’s nothing wrong with working out, but you miss so much of life if you never leave the gym.
So too do some Christian take this approach to religion. They go to church and follow their faith not because of what it accomplishes but because they identify as “a Christian”. And their religion turns into some metaphysical stairmaster that they run on because that’s what Christians do. And consequently they miss out on life – and on a real relationship with God and his creation – because they are solely focused in on the mechanics of their religion.
But if they could get off the stairmaster and out of the great cosmic gym and see that God isn’t about “being a Christian”, they could maybe see what and why they go through their spiritual exercises. They could appreciate that faith adds meaning to life, but it isn’t life alone. And doctrine gives direction to God, but it isn’t divine on its own.
I hope that you don’t look at the gym bunnies and think, “ugg… I don’t want to work out because i don’t want to end up as boring and lifeless as them”. Your heath requires some exercise. So too I hope you don’t look at some Christians and think, “ugg… I don’t want to have anything to do with God or spirituality because I don’t want to end up as rigid, closed-minded, and bigoted as them”. Your spirit needs some exercise.
The original post is really snarky in saying:
Is that true? Does Exodus avoid saying whether they consider Christianity and homosexuality to be compatible?
No, in fact they don’t. At their website this very question is in their FAQ: Can a person be gay and still be a Christian?
I find the original post poorly researched and irresponsible in its insinuations that Exodus isn’t normally open about this. If you’re going to be snarky, at least do the homework. Otherwise you just make yourself look bad, along with this website and all gay people by association.
I say that as a gay man who thinks very little of Exodus. I know we hold ourselves to much higher standards, and welcome accountability. I’m saying all this in that spirit.
Thanks.
Matt said:
Is that true? Does Exodus avoid saying whether they consider Christianity and homosexuality to be compatible?
Matt, read the article once again with this incident in mind. Perhaps you will then understand purpose of the post. Your aggravation illustrates the point perfectly – right on target.
To those caught up in “I reject Christianity because…”, I suggest that your rejection of Christianity is for the same reason that fundamentalists reject you. A focus on the words/dogma/authoritative positions of religion rather than a focus on mystery and wonder of God.
Tim,
I reject Christianity because I don’t believe there is a God. I don’t believe that Jesus was God, let alone a historical person. I don’t believe the world was created by an intelligent being.
Those are the basics, all the other stuff – the words, dogmas, and authoritative positions are secondary.
gordo said:
I reject Christianity because I don’t believe there is a God. I don’t believe that Jesus was God, let alone a historical person. I don’t believe the world was created by an intelligent being.
We all have free will and must decide for ourselves who Christ was and if there is a God behind the universe. However, disputing that Jesus the man ever existed would be hard to sustain historically. Just as it seems pointless for a Christian to avoid acknowledging that the Earth could be 4.6 Billion years old, I see no reason for an atheist to avoid recognizing the historical record. If the foundation of our belief is sound, the mere existence of these facts should not challenge us.
And yes, I know we are all drifting off target 😉 That seems to happen whenever the subject of faith comes up. Strong feelings come with.
Matt:
Exodus chairman Mike Haley said in 2004 that someone can be gay and Christian — was he being charitable, or telling a half-truth?
Randy Thomas and former Exodus board member used to tell me the same thing at Bridges Across the Divide in the late 1990s.
Now — as David indicates — Thomas declares that the gay label alone is sufficient to condemn one to hell — despite what the Exodus FAQ says.
It seems to me that Exodus cannot make up its mind — or is deliberately delivering somewhat contradictory messages in order to appease comflicting constituencies.
Timothy Kincaide wrote: If you view Christianity (or any other religion) as the “right” thing to do or way to believe, you are destined for disappointment, disillusionment, or rigidity of thought. However, if you view Christianity (etc.) as a means to know God (or the divine), then you can use it as a tool and a guide.
If Christianity isn’t right, then how can it ever be a proper tool to know any god? Certainly then Jesus was not a god. So what are you doing playing at being Christian?
I understand you a bit about the stairmaster analogy. However, I am an atheist. But since most all of my relatives are Catholic I still attend Mass, because I do not want to give up that fellowship. And I recognize that it does lift up my very natural human spirit; however I do not participate in the Eucharist out of respect for their beliefs. I’m ok with it until the priest reads a dictate about how people are supposed to oppose homosexuality. Lot of good that does, I have left during Mass because of it.
But all that is working upon is my natural human spirit, I don’t recognize any god working therein at all. I don’t view Christianity as right whatsoever. If Christianity were right it would include a workable ethic for the homosexuals of the world. It doesn’t, no religion does. So how does that false teaching mean Christianity has anything to do with a god? If Jesus had come back and said we have to make a new ethic for your effeminate brothers, they are god’s children as well, the old law was wrong. Well, no one would have followed him would they? But if he were a god, why didn’t he say that?
Christianity’s theology is bunk. Christianity’s books are often a very good way to order the natural human spirit, however. But then again, it falls flat on its face in terms of gay people. Frankly I’d rather see the Abrahamic religions destroyed because their prophetic apocalyptic theology is very dangerous. And it is very dangerous in those terms for gay people, the acceptance of which is seen as an apocalyptic sign. One reason which spurs on the homophobia in America.
…
Lij said:
If Christianity isn’t right, then how can it ever be a proper tool to know any god? Certainly then Jesus was not a god.
I am a Christian and I have to say I am with you on this one. My faith and understanding lead me to believe that Christ is who He said He was, and that by placing my faith in Him I am reconciled with God, secure beyond any power. My life should lead others to see the reality of this without my having to condemn them or tell them I think they are wrong, etc.
However, Christianity is a narrow path and quite intolerant of a pantheistic approach – not narrow because of a set of rules, but because it provides one way to salvation; repentance and faith in Christ. The degree to which a faith deviates from this is the degree to which it is no longer Christian. Many issues of doctrine can be debated by people of good conscience, but there are certain core issues which are essential. Homosexuality simply isn’t one of these issues, and it is incredible that anyone would try to make it so.
If all this is true, how can I say that all other “roads to God” are equal and not be a hypocrite? To do that requires me to assume that scripture is so open to interpretation that their is no truth in it, or to discard large sections of it to fit my scheme of things rather than the other way around. On the other hand, it’s just as bad that some create new rules and regulations to load on to people when Christ said his load was light.
I appreciate your candor and honesty concerning what you believe. I can say without hesitation that I have been there. And if God is not real to you, I wouldn’t suggest you believe – that would be fake and not true to yourself. All I suggest is that you keep your mind and heart open.
What really frosts me most about the heresy espoused by Exodus, FOTF, et al., is how it distances people from God, an irony I don’t care to ponder long because it makes me sick. They would bring people closer to God if they would just SHUT UP. Instead they see gay Christians as running around trying to have their cake and eat it too. Christ is not narrow minded, but some of His followers really are.
I apologize for a certain amount of rant indulgence here – a combination of venting some anger and pondering out loud. If anything offends, it wasn’t intended.