Last weekend Melissa Fryrear was quoted in the Miami Herald:
”You can’t make people want to overcome their sexuality. It must be an individual decision,” said speaker Melissa Fryrear. “Thousands of people have made that decision, though.”
I’ve been on Alan Chambers’ case for questionable statistics for some time now so I figured I’d email Melissa to see what her source is. She was kind enough to respond to my message and offered an explanation today. In the interest of fairness I present Melissa’s reply in its entirety.
Mr. Gonzales,
In response to your question, my statement that thousands of men and women have successfully walked away from homosexuality is derived from the following sources.
[Letter continues after the page jump]
One, organizations like Exodus International have been in existence for several decades. Currently, for example, there are over 125 member ministries throughout the world. Each of these individual ministries have participants ranging in number of a dozen to hundreds. Given the longevity of Exodus and its breadth of referral ministries, again, thousands of men and women have participated and overcome their struggle with homosexuality.
Other faiths have similar homosexual recovery organizations. For example, within Judaism it is called JONAH and within Mormonism, Evergreen. Again, as these organizations have existed for decades, countless individuals have sought help through them.
As the three major monotheistic religions of the world all see homosexuality as outside of God’s design for human sexuality, they all have sought to provide their adherents with help to overcome that particular proclivity.
In addition to Christian organizations, secular organizations and secular therapists such as Masters and Johnson and the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) have also been working for decades with thousands of men and women seeking to overcome their same-sex attraction. The therapists and clinicians associated with NARTH alone, for example, have seen over 1,000 clients since its inception.
Two, dozens of books have been written related to a Christian perspective on homosexuality. For example, Desires in Conflict, Restoring Sexual Identity, and Out of Egypt. These three books alone include findings taken from the interviews of hundreds of men and women overcoming a homosexual identity.
Additionally, several years ago Dr. Robert Spitzer conducted a study of those who have overcome homosexuality. Alone he interviewed almost 250 participants. For more about his study access https://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html.
Finally, while you and/or your readers may not hold to a biblical worldview, as Christians our biblical witness of former homosexuals dates back to the first century. 1 Corinthians 6:11 states, “And such were some of you…” referencing men and women who once lived homosexually. Needless to say, in the millennia following, many have followed in those same footsteps.
Thank you for your question.
Melissa Fryrear
Note to Ex-Gay Watch readers: Since I’ve gotten someone many of us disagree with to dialogue, I expect commenters to be polite and respectful. I will delete comments that might discourage people from dialoguing with Ex-Gay Watch in the future. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with Melissa, it just means you have to be civil about making your rebuttal.
I really appreciate Ms. Fryrear taking the time to respond.
It is informative to hear someone who is recognized as a leader and speaker among ex-gays describe the oft-mentioned numbers as an informal collection of anecdotal observations and projections which doesn’t include references to, or apparent concern about, accounting for attrition.
She doesn’t mention any data collection efforts by ex-gay groups or specify that groups specifically don’t collect data. To whatever extent they do avoid tracking their numbers, they’re unusual among nonprofit organizations, but that’s certainly possible.
Certainly I can imagine any tracking to be difficult. It’s clear that the folks who fade from active participation in ex-gay groups may do so either because they’ve stabilized their new ex-gay lives, or because they’ve come to accept themselves as no longer or never-been ex-gay. I’m glad Ms. Fryrear doesn’t appear to be suggesting that anyone who has identified as ex-gay should be counted as ex-gay today.
I’ll just comment on one bit:
“In addition to Christian organizations, secular organizations and secular therapists such as Masters and Johnson and the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) have also been working for decades with thousands of men and women seeking to overcome their same-sex attraction. The therapists and clinicians associated with NARTH alone, for example, have seen over 1,000 clients since its inception.”
NARTH has a section on Christian theology and “ethics” bashing homosexuality, which is quite an indication of how ‘secular’ their organization trully is. What exactly does their organization do constructively? They do not conduct or fund peer reviewed studies like reputed medical and scientific organizations do, and actually seems to be a mouthpiece, political in nature, trying to debase actual research into the field of sexuality and the existence of LGBTQ people in general. From those observations, it is quite clear that NARTH’s secular façade is bought only by the ignorant.
Sorry, but I feel like what I’ve written is unoriginal and has been repeated on this blog countless of times. This is the reason what I don’t comment frequently here.
While I appreciate that Melissa took the time to respond thoughtfully to the question it would be impossible for me to not take issue with her blanket statement that “As the three major monotheistic religions of the world all see homosexuality as outside of God’s design for human sexuality…”
While large sections of these religions do indeed hold the viewpoint that homosexuality is against God’s design, there is also a growing segment within each of these religions (and others) that hold another viewpoint; that being that homosexuality is yet another expression of God’s creative diversity.
As evidence, there exists today thousands of churches and temples throughout the world that are open and affirming to GLBT people in the life and ministry of their faith communities, and the numbers of faith communities taking this position are continually increasing. These places of worship are filled with individuals equally dedicated to their faith as are those who hold a differing viewpoint on homosexuality and so they are to be considered as equally representative of their various faith traditions.
Over the past two dozen years numerous organizations within most major Christian denominations (and in other religions) have been established, dedicated to working on behalf of the full inclusion of GLBT persons. These organizations are comprised of gays and lesbians, along with straight allies among church leadership, clergy, and laity.
There are no doubt an equal number of books written that give thoughtful and sincere witness to the faith stories of GLBT Christians, books by straight and gay scholars, pastors, rabbis, theologians, and mental health professionals that offer supportive research on the emotional and spiritual health and wholeness of gay and lesbian people.
My only point is that while the prominent religious voice in the media, that being a conservative religious voice, does indeed hold the position to which Melissa suggests, that is not the only religious voice or viewpoint on the matter and so it’s simply not accurate to make an absolute statement such as was offered. Instead, it would be more accurate to state that “As many (or even) most within the three major monotheistic religions of the world see homosexuality as outside of God’s design for human sexuality, these have sought to provide…”
As a psychologist, I’ve looked carefully for peer-reviewed studies that would give some reliable data on the number of people who have actually been treated and what the success rates were. Exodus has no reliable figures on even the number of people treated. Spitzer’s study is the one most frequently touted of late by the religious right since he was not a proponent of reparative therapy. However, he admits that it took him forever to accumulate even the 200 subjects that he found. The subjects were all referred by reparative therapy groups and had strong religious motivation to change. Results were based on phone interviews and there were other flaws in the research. If you’re interested, the Washington Post has a pretty good overview of the situation. In sum, it’s possible to make grand (and loose) claims but the numbers simply aren’t there.
Sorry. I didn’t get a preview button on last post and the link is bad. Try this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/15/AR2005081501022_pf.html
Posted by: Xeno at May 10, 2006 11:45 PM
Agreeing with Xeno that Narth can hardly be called secular in any true sense of the word.
Posted by: Rev. Anita Cadonau-Huseby at May 11, 2006 01:47 AM
Agreeing with Rev Cadonau-Huseby that there are certainly mixed views on homosexuality within the “major monotheistic religions” of the world, and these are changing quickly. I might add, and as Xeno would say this is hardly original, that these same religions held a rather odious, affirming view of slavery not so long ago, though these views also changed from within.
To Melissa Fryrear I would say that, while you have made a greater effort to explain the figures you have used than anyone else I can remember (because no one else has at all really), what you claim still appears to be far more anecdotal than fact. And even if I was to agree with your figures (and I honestly don’t), where on earth is the follow-up?
Suppose I had a network of “ministries” that claimed to convert left-handed people to right-handedness. Suppose a lot of lefties called, wrote, emailed or even showed up at the door – all those things that seem to qualify gay people for inclusion in your “stats”. Would anyone take me seriously if I claimed that hundreds of thousands of people had successfully become right handed if I had no more proof than what you and others have given? How do you know if this “change” lasts? An act of will power can work in the short term but how about a few years down the road? You see, we have very few of these people to point to and even those have rather murky histories (i.e. were they really gay?). On the other hand we have a significant number (ex. Michael Johnston, John Paulk) who have, in one way or another, made a full circle from “ex-gay” to “ex-ex-gay” so to speak. Did they change twice? How can we know without data?
The obvious point here is that when dealing with anything scientific, but certainly something as serious one’s sexual orientation, we have to actually do the work of keeping records, follow-ups and open this up to peer review. If we can use double-blind tests on cancer treatments, certainly we can risk it on this, don’t you think? This is how you gain the right to say what you are saying. One can’t just make claims based on weak assumptions.
And yes, I do hold to a biblical world view. The reference you give in Corinthians first said “homosexual” in 1958, not 2000 years ago. I’ve tried my best to make what we have of the originals (they aren’t of course but close) say homosexual but I can’t. Perhaps that’s why it took almost 2000 years for translators to insert “homosexual” in there, they couldn’t tell either. At any rate, my faith in Christ’s work (or yours) can’t be used as an excuse for competent clinical work. People expect accurate data when they receive treatment or therapy, not just Christian data. This isn’t personal as I don’t know you, but anyone who makes such claims as this must be required to support them. Otherwise we risk perpetrating a fraud on innocent people and doing real harm.
David Roberts
david@exgaywatch.com
While I am happy Melissa has answered your email. I am curious why she has not made the distinction between people participating in these programs and ministries and people reaching success.
She states in her email how she came up with the numbers, but then explains only how people have signed on to the programs. While millions of people sign on to weight watchers, a much smaller number stick with the program and actually succeed. I see this as the same.
Perhaps if she wants to be honest about the numbers, she could say that thousands have signed on and tried to walk away. Then get some real science as to the real success rate.
Weight Watchers has been around for decades too. Doesn’t mean it works. And overeating, unlike sexual orientation, is truly a choice.
See also, “psychics, “astrologers,” “fortune tellers.” All around a very long time, and all totally ineffective, if not downright fraudulent.
KidEquire is right and she didn’t answer the question. No numbers just heresay.
While I agree with Melissa that if you go back to pre-Christian times, you can certainly find thousands of people that have somehow turned from gay to straight, this figure is also nothing more than anecdotal. And, I can buy the “thousands” figure, but using such anecdotal methodology would be a far stretch to get to the “hundreds of thousands” others claim have made the change.
Then again, all she said was thousands of people had “made the decision” to change, which does not mean thousands have actually changed or been successful at changing over a long period.
Found this link on Dispatches From the Culutal War blog. Might be interesting reading for some. https://zenoferox.blogspot.com/2005/11/richard-socarides-is-still-gay.html
Brady said:
Then again, all she said was thousands of people had “made the decision” to change, which does not mean thousands have actually changed or been successful at changing over a long period.
Good point, I missed that.
David Roberts
So, basically her argument is that since the ministries have been around a long time, there must be thousands of successes.
People have been looking for the Loch Ness monster for many many years. Therefore, someone must have found it.
AM I The only person who thinks melissa fryrear is kinda cute?
I’m a regular reader posting for the first time. Usually I don’t have anything to add, but went through a personal version of being “ex-gay” while I was Orthodox, married and divorced about a year and half later as I was sliding quickly into a mental breakdown because I was obviously not ‘straight’ and no amount of prayer was going to change me. I’m now no longer Orthodox and find the Jonah site and my own experience with ‘reorientation’ to be toxic and damaging. I thought people might be interested in the actual Jewish view.
I enjoy this site immensely and check in at least once a day, so thanks for all the effort and the positive conversations.
This is a summary of the laws as they relate to lesbianism, but includes the verses that are recognized as referring to homosexual relations in general. These are far fewer than what Christianity has traditionally recognized (from what I understand…), though I’ve seen some Orthodox people adding some recently, even the Sodom and Gemorah story, which is traditionally not regarded as referring to homosexuality within Judaism.
https://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n1/v1n1zeid.htm
This is a letter from a Lubavitch rabbi in response to Dr. Laura. The Lubavitchers are the most liberal of the Ultra-Orthodox sects. Boteach glosses a bit, but he ephasizes the loving kindness that the Lubavitchers strive for. Their Rebbe (the deceased leader of the Lubavitchers) did believe in ‘reorientation’, however. His view was that homosexuality was natural but the Torah requires us to struggle against nature if it is against G-d’s Law. (This, btw, was the sect I belonged to). I’ve heard that there are Lubavitch Rabbis who have counselled women that they are fine being with other women, because the prohibition is specifically against penetration, though I haven’t personally heard this from a Rabbi myself, so take that as very anecdotal:
https://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=609
There is a growing movement within Orthodoxy (which received a major boost with the release of the documentary Trembling Before G-d) which this addresses:
https://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html
This also has additional information on attitudes and Biblical and Rabbinic law:
https://www.jfcs.org/Services/Individuals_and_Couples/Individuals_and_Couples_Resource_Library/Individuals_and_Couples_Articles/Judaism_and_Homosexuality.asp
Hopefully that last, very long link will be accessible.
I’ve specifically excluded Rabbinic views that disscuss homosexuality as if it’s pederasty or a mental illness, but those views do exist, especially in the Orthodox world.
The Reform, the Reconstructionist and the Renewal movements all recognize SSM and are officially fully accepting of homosexuality and gay rights. The Conservative Movement is still struggling with this. Because of the size of the Reform Movement, it would be erroneous to suggest that “Judaism” is not accepting of homosexuality and both the Conservative and the Orthodox Movement are debating the issue with the Conservative movement accepting of all rights but marriage, committment ceremonies and ordination. Gay people (and couples) can participate fully in synagogue life. It’s important to recognize that the Orthodox are very small percentage of what constitutes Judaism and opinion within the various O. groups varies considerably.
AM I The only person who thinks melissa fryrear is kinda cute?
She does have an irresistible, unpredictable Samantha Bee mojo going for her!
(sorry to bust into this thread, but Hava Israel, I’m very interested to hear more of your story – can you e-mail me at rising-up (at) earthlink (dot) net? I’m trying to get in touch with those who have had non-Christian ex-gay experiences)
Back to your regularly scheduled thread conversation.
Hava Israel,
Thank you soooo much for contributing. It’s good to hear a Jewish voice, especially one who has history and knowledge of Orthodox Judaism.
One tool used by the political end of the conservative Christian movement is to phrase things as “Judeo-Christian”. It gives them a pretense of being inclusive and universal.
But I’ve often suspected that the positions taken aren’t all that “Judeo” at all and that the conservative Christian movement simply usurped the name. This seems to be particularly true in areas of sin or morality where “Judeo-Christian” seems to have everything to do with Christian theology and very little to do with the Jewish way of looking at the world.
Please continue to provide your viewpoint whenever you feel so inclined. As a Christian, my understanding of Judaism is limited and there are times when I would love to see someone post who actually has a better and more comprehensive knowledge than my reading could ever provide.
As was pointed out above, Ms. Fryrear does not claim (in this instance) that thousands have reoriented, but simply that thousands have “made that decision”.
This would make her assertion technically correct. However, it does sound a little like the story of the boy who reached in the kitchen window and took cookies out of the cookie jar. When his mother questioned him if he took the cookies, he said, “I haven’t set foot in the kicthen all day!”
His words were correct, but he was still practicing deceipt.
I respectfully caution Fryrear that as people of faith, we have a higher obligation than to “not lie”, we must also “not practice deceipt”.
If she gives testimony to a reporter and has reason to believe that the reporter or the readers of the article think that her words mean that there are thousands of people in America living today as ex-gay, she has an obligation – mandated by God – to clarify her position. This is God’s ninth commandment.
She must either explain that there is no documentation to support her position and that she is talking about centuries and other countries and is just guessing and that she is only discussing those entering programs, not those who remain ex-gay.
I would like to point out that when Ms. Fryrear calls Mormonism, Christianity, and Judaism “the three major monotheistic religions of the world,” not only does she ignore the growing numbers of adherents to those religions that are accepting and affirming homosexuality as within God’s plan, she completely ignores Islam. While much of Islam also decries homosexuality, there is also a growing number of affirming people within the Muslim community. https://www.al-fatiha.org/
Jeanette, I think you misread Melissa’s letter, though I can understand your confusion. While she mentions Evergreen which is a Mormon ex-gay ministry, I don’t think she meant to imply that Mormonism is one of the Big Three. She just doesn’t mention Islam specifically.
Melissa’s letter certainly IS interesting and I concur that she hasn’t defended her public statement very well.
You know, you’re probably right. It’s rather confusing whether she meant Islam or Mormonism. Mormonism is a very small religion comparatively, obviously. I wonder, though, to what extent Islam has attempted to help glbt people deal with their sexualities within the framework of Islam’s traditional theological views of sexual morality. Though perhaps that should be for another thread. ^^
Maybe she should mention Islam. The way most Muslims treat gay and lesbian people make the American Family Association look like United Way. Their treatment for homosexuality involves a brick wall, and bogus “ex-gay” therapy would be an improvement.
I don’t think she answered the most important question.
If you’d asked how long and far was their organization’s presence, I’d say she’d answered it.
As to it’s effectiveness, endurance of reorientation and necessity-she blew it.
Also, she didn’t answer regarding their work in full disclosure or methodology with the APA and other long standing and well respected peer bodies.
What Christians, or Jews would think of Exodus is one thing.
What legitimate doctors think of them, is another.
Which evidently, isn’t much.
I’ll say again: I wouldn’t trust a medical doctor that scoffed and what doctors apply and know or have abandoned as archaic or ineffectual.
But he went with a movement that continued to vilify a group as unfit for anything else productive in life, unless and until they adhered to their amorphous ‘treatment’.
Fryear has her talking points down.
Proof of their claims hasn’t been demanded and Exodus has grown comfortable with no one seriously challenging them.
The question isn’t really whether or not someone chooses to be gay.
But I want people like Fryear to explain or entertain the idea, that if gay youngsters weren’t so pressured, threated, nagged, harrassed or violated-would they admit that perhaps the gay kid wouldn’t mind being gay?
And would anyone else mind without the intervention of Exodus?
Daniel, it would be helpful if we knew what she was replying to — could you add that please?I don’t think there’s little doubt that “thousands” — probably millions — have wanted to Not Be Gay, at some point, for any number of reasons.Thousands have certainly attempted to Not Be Gay, as we know from clinical records alone.And “walk away”… if you mean lifetime celibacy, then certainly more than a few have decided that over the years. Hint: every (RC) priest as example.But, that’s not what anyone is asking and Melissa Fryrear knows it.
Melissa provided nothing to those questions. We have no evidence of anyone who attended Exodus as having changed their sexual orientation, let alone remained changed.
Melissa Fryear counts me at least twice in her calculation of the “thousands of men and women seeking to overcome their same sex attraction” through Exodus International and NARTH. I participated in an Exodus International group from 1991 to 1994, and then received weekly therapy through NARTH from roughly 1997 to 2000. (My therapist was David Matheson, at that time a counselor on the NARTH staff, but also a founder of Evergreen International, the Mormon ex-gay ministry Fryear mentions. So maybe I even count for three!)
In addition to those two stints, I was part of Homosexuals Anonymous from 1989 to 1991, and consulted several other Christian therapists over the years.
As others have noted, Melissa Fryear confuses the number of people passing through ex-gay ministries with some sort of success record. In my lengthy experience with these groups, I never personally met anyone who had undergone a fundamental change or “healing” in their same sex attractions. I concluded that the very best ex-gay ministries can offer is some personal support for those who choose to live in the closet, trying to deny or minimize their orientation.
The ex-gay groups I participated in did have a very healthy effect for some members, however. I saw many younger people from strict religious backgrounds, who had struggled with their same-sex attractions for years in fear and secrecy. Within an ex-gay group, they were able to admit these feelings openly for the very first time, without fear of being immediately condemned.
But here’s the secret I have never heard an ex-gay leader admit: from my personal observation, the most common outcome for these same young people was to meet someone else within the group, begin having sex, and eventually embrace their identity as gay.
If anyone could go back and actually track the outcomes from participation in ex-gay ministries, I would wager he would find a much higher percentage of people like me, now living happily out of the closet, than of former participants who have “overcome that particular proclivity.”
Nick, if you don’t mind — could we ask why you attended an exgay group? or in your case, many :)And, echoing your thoughts, as has been discussed many time here before, joining an exgay group is often just the first step for many anti-gay gay men and women. I’m quite sure that many, many more gay men and lesbians have emerged from exgay groups as gay than have emerged as exgayYou’ve really got to question your methodology if that happens…. assuming, of course, that exgay groups are acctually intended to cure gay mena and women into straights; rather than just being a fundraising fraud that promotes anti-gay values.
In response to grantdale’s question:
I lived as “ex-gay” for almost 30 years. I came out in 1970, when I was 18 and living on Castro Street in San Francisco. But I had a dramatic religious conversion two years later that led me to renounce homosexuality.
There was no organized ex-gay ministry back then. But if there I had been, I would have looked like a real success story. I got married, raised three kids, and had a very successful career. Just one small problem: I always knew I was still gay.
As the years went by and my sense of inner conflict increased, I tried the various ex-gay ministries and therapists enumerated in my first post, hoping to find some better resolution. Did that for about 12 years. Finally, in 2002, I felt I couldn’t continue living in denial and came out again. Saddest part of that was the end of my marriage. But I really have to say that I have found a wonderful new life, just by being who I really am.
Thanks Nick. Sorry we missed your posting a few days ago.And your life sounds very familiar — not personally 🙂 — all the guys we’ve ever met (like you) wished they hadn’t bent themself out of shape for so long, but ALL of them still have a deep love and respect for their former wife and and honest and wonderful relationship with their children.We’ve even met a few of the former wives. Can’t speak for yourself, but you know, they have all been the kindest and most understanding type of people. The kids have all been cool — well adjusted and happy, and comepletely understanding of how two extra dads (one for her, one for him) came onto the scene.Honesty, and love, I think helped. She didn’t behave as if this was something he could change. He didn’t go all wild and crazy and behave like an adolescent. ie they dealt with as mature adults.Again, thank you. And our best wishes to yourself and yours. 🙂
Dear Nick,
You are just as immoral as any other married man who leaves his wife for someone else in mid-life. Being more attracted to men than women does not excuse your unfaithful conduct and your breaking of a bond that is supposed to last forever.
If you got your wife pregnant three times, you are obviously not so gay that you can’t live happily as a heterosexual in a traditional marriage. What do you mean “who you really are”? That is the biggest bunch of essentialist psychobullshit I’ve ever heard. Do you think God gave you a “gay” soul while he gave the rest of straight souls. Why do you define yourself by what you think about when you choke the chicken? I just don’t get it.
You’re absolutely right Sofita, you just don’t get it.
sofita, do you think God gave, say, Condoleeza Rice black skin when he gave everyone else white skin? Clearly this abnormality is the result of God cursing her ancestors because of their sinfulness. And why should she define herself just by some skin pigmentation? I don’t get that.
I don’t see where Nick says that he divorced because of an affair. It looks to me like the marriage failed because he realized he was not heterosexual. No mention was made of being unfaithful during the marriage, unless I’ve missed something. In my culture, divorce is completely acceptable, especially when the two individuals involved are in agreement that the marriage should end. Since, I don’t see anything in Nicks post that indicates anything different, there’s no reason to conclude that something immoral occured.
The rest of Sofita’s comment strikes me as someone experiencing a complete failure of empathy that resulted in mean judgementalness and rudeness concerning someone elses personal life.
It’s quite true, Sofita. You don’t get it, and yet you appear to believe you know quite a bit about Nick’s sex life. Interesting.
Not to mention, Hava Israel, that if Nick spent that long in a heterosexual marriage, one would assume his children were almost, if not already, adults when the divorce happened, so the biggest issue of divorce, the impact on the children, would have been minimal. Now, I don’t know sofita, but I really wonder, in general, why we never hear of the “pro-family” types taking other forms of immorality to task. Why are Newt Gingrich and Libby Dole, who are both adulterers according to the “bible,” given respect by the religious right? I will admit most of the “pro-family” commentators do not seem as adamantly opposed to divorce as sofita, but they do claim to have a “biblical world view” that should be offended by divorce.
And what about known adulterers who stay in their marriages? Sure, Bill Clinton got a lot of guff, but I heard nary a word about the immorality of, say, Kobe Bryant, even though he admitted to adultery. Hollywood is attacked for being “liberal,” but was Bruce Willis ever taken to task for insisting that men were genetically incapable of monogamy?
Hava Israel said:
The rest of Sofita’s comment strikes me as someone experiencing a complete failure of empathy that resulted in mean judgementalness and rudeness concerning someone elses personal life.
This is all too common and I suspect stems from much deeper personal issues within the one judging. The judgment is not always confined to gay issues, but anything one can substitute for whatever one lacks control over in one’s own life, control that is desperately desired. A black and white view of everything seems to accompany this.
Not rocket science but it seems true.
David Roberts
Sofita,
If you are going to post here we are going to have to ask you to clean up your language.
Thank you
Timothy Kincaid
People have had all kinds of nasty things to say about me, yet I noone has responded to my basic argument. How does deciding you’re “gay” and therefore more sexually attracted to some dude justify leaving your wife. The fact that the gravest harm of divorce is to children does not change the fact that Nick abandoned a person to whom he had made a lifelong promise of fidelity and companionship. I wasn’t alleging adultery, but unfaithful conduct. Those aren’t the same thing.
Nick, you chose to abandon your wife, whether you chose to have same-sex attractions or not, and that is despicable. Middle-aged men find all sorts of people they find sexier than their spouse, yet many stay because they have a moral fiber and a sense of commitment that you lack.
Sofita assumes that Nick left his wife.
Sofita isn’t bothering to ask whether the wife left Nick, or whether the wife really tried very hard to preserve her marriage to a same-sex-attracted man. Many wives don’t.
It takes two to make or break a marriage.
Sofita, the difference between most middle aged men and most gay men is that most middle aged men have some significant sexual/romantic attraction to their partner whereas a gay like Nick many have none. You can’t compare the two types of relationships and say its just as easy to make one work as the other.
Lots of heteorsexual middle aged men abandon wives despite a lifelong promise of fidelity and companionship. Why aren’t you devoting most of your criticism to them instead of singling out gay men for the same crime? What makes a relationship workable or not is a unique combination of factors. Only the two people directly involved in a relationship are best placed to decide if its unworkable or not. Far be it for anyone outside of a relationship to second guess their decision. Now go criticize 10 or 20 heterosexuals before you come back here.
Sofita- I’m sorry, I thought your basic argument was something about choking a chicken. It’s hard to comb through all of your vitriol to tease out the exact section that you consider the most important, specially as I can’t read your mind.
To answer your question, trying to keep a fake marriage going is often more toxic to all parties involved, including the children, than honestly admitting it’s not working and ending it.
Dear Mike A.
The trouble is I never find postings by people bragging about leaving their wives for another woman as Nick brags here about leaving his wife to be with a man. Otherwise, I would let them know exactly what I think of them.
Dear Randi,
It sounds like you don’t believe in marriage. Marriage isn’t something you stick with as long as its convenient. Its supposed to be for life, and studies show that children do best when their parents stay together. I know it was disaster for me when my Dad, whom I find revolting and no longer speak to, left my Mom for another woman.
By the way, what exactly makes a marriage “fake”?
Sofita,
“..as Nick brags here about leaving his wife to be with a man.”
As has been pointed out to you several times now, there is nothing in Nick’s posting that indicates that he left his wife. If you persist in making this unsubstantiated claim you will lose the privelege of posting here.
Sofita,
Nick did not brag about leaving his wife; indeed, he said, “Saddest part of that was the end of my marriage.” Sounds to me like the wife could have played an equal role.
In any case, you uncharitably imagined Nick to be bragging, which he clearly was not doing.
And then you resort to strawman argumentation — instead of seeking clarification about Randi’s views on marriage, you accused Randi of not “believing” in marriage.
Thank you for at least asking what Randi Boo meant by “fake”.
(For the record, I believe that spouses in a split-orientation marriage should both make a good-faith effort to honor their vows and preserve the union.)
Sofita, Nick’s story isn’t bragging, but a warning to same sex attracted people to avoid heterosexual marriage. That’s worth telling people about it.
As for me I have the most wonderful love with my boyfriend and wouldn’t want to spoil it by labelling it marriage and having people like you try to tell me what my relationship should be. No I don’t believe in marriage, but far be it for me to think I’m some kind of genius (as you apparently do) who can tell others whether or not they should be married. I’m sorry you didn’t have the family you wanted. Neither did I and my parents stayed married for over 50 years.
I didn’t make the comment about “fake” marriages, Boo did. Having said that I suspect some marriages between a gay man and a heterosexual woman are fakes in that they are based on a desire of the man to appease others first with love of the partner being secondary.
Nick’s story sounds a lot like mine… and like the rest of you I don’t understand Sofita’s ranting. The end of my marriage was a mutual decision between husband and wife based on a lengthy process of figuring out what made sense and was best for everyone, children included. I have no reason to think that Nick’s situation was any different. Why the harsh scrutiny of Nick’s personal life?
I think that scrutiny may have to do with an assumption that divorce is always sinful. Sofita has not said as much, but that would be my inference.
The idea of no-fault divorce is especially grating for those who believe this–and they will cite statistics to demonstrate that divorce is harmful, in any instance (save perhaps spousal abuse).
The debate here won’t get anywhere unless the underlying assumptions which are in conflict get addressed, or people agree to lay them aside and examine something else, say, whether Nick treated his wife ethically (bracketing divorce). Unfortunately, bracketing deeply held assumptions for the sake of argument and dialogue isn’t easy.
Fake may have been the wrong word to use. Try “a marriage that can’t work” instead
It was nice of her to summarize her figures and sources and I share many of the thoughts expressed by the respondents here that are critical of her methods of data collection and analysis. They were truly informal and anecdotal.
However, even if she did have some hard figures, I believe it would be even more impressive to see valid data and analysis about GLBT individuals who have left the ex-gay movements, who have been psychologically damaged by them, who have moved away from religion totally or to more tolerant branches, who have been psychologically damanged by societal pressures, or who have committed suicide because to them that was easier than facing a life of religion-induced hatred — or a combination of all these stats. Thank goodness that some have found welcoming religious institutions. For many people, a spiritual home is one of the most important aspects of their lives.
I’m not a religious person, but have a hunch that religious GLBT individuals are even more horrified than I am by the activities of the activist right-wing conservative religious groups.
Tom,
The book Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical, and Research Perspectives is a collection of research into the psychological damage that exgay programs have done to clients.