Jeff Postelwait is the author of a light-hearted op-ed titled If gay were straight, could you change yourself?, posted April 8 at the Daily O’Collegian.
In his opinion piece, Postelwait challenged some antigay activists’ assumption that it is only gays who should “change,” and that only heterosexual affections are legitimate.
Speaking for Exodus, exgay advocate and former FRC operative Yvette Cantu Schneider protests Postelwait’s message, but somehow never addresses Postelwait’s key points.
Schneider says she is “disheartened” by the message — not because Postelwait’s arguments are objectionable, but perhaps because she cannot find much to disagree with, and must therefore misrepresent Postelwait’s message in order to disagree with it.
Schneider says (with slightly broken grammar):
The misguided notion that homosexuality exists therefore it is morally good…
But that is not what Postelwait said. He said that people assume that heterosexual orientation is natural and therefore morally good.
… and his naive belief that the gay lifestyle is just like heterosexuality but with a partner of the same sex.
That is not a “belief”; it is a acknowledgement by Postelwait that his own romantic life (not a “lifestyle”) and the relationships of other gay couples do, in fact, mirror those of his heterosexual peers — for better or worse.
Homosexuality is not morally right simply because someone does not know how he became gay or because embracing his homosexual identity was a difficult or painful process.
This is a repetition of Schneider’s earlier strawman argument. She seems to derive her assumption not from Postelwait, nor from the beliefs of other real gay people, but rather from a belief among FRC ideologues, past and present, who insinuate that all gay people — perhaps all non-religious-rights — think in the same morally stupid manner.
Schneider continues to thrash about for an argument to use against Postelwait:
Neither is homosexuality a benign lifestyle that is healthy and good just because someone happens to have strong physical or emotional attractions to the same-sex.
But Postelwait never said homosexuality is, by default, a benign lifestyle.
Schneider resorts to that strawman argument because conservative political correctness prevents her from confronting the truth of Postelwait’s actual theme: that heterosexuality per se is no more or less natural or good than homosexuality.
What makes a particular heterosexual or homosexual “lifestyle” moral is what one does with one’s attraction.
The scope of heterosexuality stretches from celibate opposite-gender attraction to extramarital sex, sadomasochism and, when sex is combined with violence, rape. None of which qualify as “lifestyles” any more than their homosexual counterparts do.
Schneider seems afraid of the ramifications of this fact: as with the full scope of homosexuality, her own chosen “identity” — heterosexuality — is more often sinful and dysfunctional than not.
Instead of addressing this difficult topic, Schneider disregards Postelwait’s thoughts about people’s natural personalities, and their overly hasty assumptions about others. Instead she continues to share her own, overly hasty assumptions about Postelwait — and, out of the blue, her prejudices about scientists.
Mr. Postelwait thinks that Christians who take a principled stance against homosexual behavior have tried to prove that no one is born gay.
Postelwait never said that.
In reality, gay activist scientists have spent top dollar, often taxpayer money, laboring for decades to prove a biological origin for homosexuality.
In this statement, Schneider smears objective research into the biological and environmental origins of sexual orientation. She assumes that no gay scientist can be trusted to perform valid research. And she hinges her rant against scientific research on the work of just one of many scientists, many of whom are credible in their fields and who in recent years have found compelling evidence cases that biology does play a role — acknowledged, to a limited degree, even by pro-exgay pundits such as Warren Throckmorton — in the development of sexual attraction.
Without any documentation, Schneider assumes she knows the motivations of researchers such as the controversial Dean Hamer:
He is motivated, in part, by the bizarre belief that if a sexual behavior has an inborn component the public will conclude that it is morally right.
In making such an unfounded assumption about the motives of someone she does not know, Schneider sloppily insults the intelligence, the integrity and the moral rectitude of her perceived opponent. Her style of debate is intellectually insincere and below-the-belt.
Schneider continues:
It is not easy to overcome homosexuality. But it is entirely possible.
Schneider avoids telling readers exactly what she means by “overcome homosexuality,” and leaves her audience with a misleading half-truth: Anyone can stop calling themselves “gay,” but even Exodus’ Alan Chambers admits, under direct questioning, that only a small percentage of individuals, at most, are able to change their attractions from predominance in one orientation to predominance in the other — and even fewer individuals seem to change permanently.
Schneider boasts:
I was a member of GLAAD.
This may help explain her attachment to stereotypes and political correctness. GLAAD, FRC and Exodus resort to stereotypes against their foes; all three organizations demand ideological correctness from the media and Hollywood.
But as far as I am aware, only FRC and Exodus distort statistics about other people to make themselves look less morally decrepit by comparison. For example, Schneider invents unflattering statistics to suggest that homosexuality makes gay and lesbian people violent:
In fact, the incidence of domestic violence among lesbians is between 30-50%, and among gay men it is nearly double what it is in the heterosexual population.
Not quite true: the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs estimates that the incidence is between 20 percent and 35 percent among gay and lesbian people, depending on how domestic violence is defined. Among same-sex-attracted men in particular:
The most recent significant study, released in 2002, indicated that gay and bisexual men experience abuse in intimate partner relationships at a rate of 2 in 5, one comparable to that of DV experienced by heterosexual women.
Schneider is correct in that, among lesbians in particular, a variety of studies using small samples do find an incidence approaching 50 percent.
Schneider concludes:
Not every gay man will have over one hundred sex partners and die young, neither will every lesbian be involved in domestic violence, or abuse drugs or alcohol as many do. In the same vain (sic), not every immoral heterosexual will contract an STD or divorce their spouse, though odds are they will. But there are definite consequences for violating God’s moral law both in this life and in the one hereafter. To those who love God and obey His laws, He promises a life of internal peace (John 14:27). To those who turn from God and His laws, “there is no peace.” (Jeremiah 6:14).
Still an FRC operative at heart, never gets around to answering Postelwait’s titular question. Instead, Schneider seems to be suggesting that AIDS and other STDs are God’s punishment for immorality. She seems to be playing God by passing eternal judgment against fellow sinners. And she seems to quoting out-of-context Bible passages to justify her efforts to deny peace — and liberty — to same-sex-attracted individuals who reject her ideology.
FIRST YOU SAY SHE “INVENTS”
Schneider invents unflattering statistics to suggest that homosexuality makes gay and lesbian people violent:
THEN, YOU SAY SHE’S RIGHT.
Schneider is correct in that, among lesbians in particular, a variety of studies using small samples do find an incidence approaching 50 percent.
Can’t you make up your mind as to whether she’s right or wrong? Who’s really confused here.
Facts to ponder:
3.)Among lesbians, “rates of verbal, physical, and sexual abuse were all significantly higher in their prior lesbian relationships than in their prior heterosexual relationships: 56.8% had been sexually victimized by a female, 45% had experienced physical aggression, and 64.5% experienced physical/emotional aggression.” (1991 survey of 350 lesbians, 75% of whom had been in a previous relationship with a man) (Donald G. Dutton “Patriarchy and Wife Assault: The Ecological Fallacy Violence and Victims. Vol 9, Number 2., 1994. Page(s) 167-178.)
4.) A survey of 1,099 lesbians found that more than half reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. This includes verbal, emotional, psychological, and physical abuse. (Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrior, “Intimate Violence in Lebian Relationships: Dicussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications, “Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59)
5.) Levels of abuse run higher among lesbians than they do homosexual men.
a.)44% of gay men reported having experienced violence in their relationships, 13% reported sexual violence and 83% reported emotional abuse.
b.)55% of lesbians reported physical violence in their relationships, 14% reported sexual abuse, and 84% reported emoytional abuse. (Study of 499 ethnically diverse homosexual, bisexual and transgendered teenagers and adults) (Susan C. Turrell “A Descriptive Analysis of same-Sex Relationship Violence for a Diverse Sample” Journal of Family Violence. Vol. 13, 2000. Page(s) 281-293)
Actually, D.L., I said quite clearly that Schneider’s half-right.
D.L.- it kind of looks like you are just trying to find things to argue about. Mike is pretty clear about her being partially right in this.
As an aside, I think it is vital for those of us in the gay/lesbian community to openly discuss domestic violence within our relationships – while understanding that the fact that there is violence in some gay/lesbian relationships does not meant there is violence in all gay/lesbian relationships.
It really should not be surprising that gays and lesbians face potentially higher rates of domestic violence after all:
a) we have few if any role models for our relationships – let’s face it, we are making this up as we go along much of the time
b) violence between those of the same gender is not nearly as societally frowned upon as violence between those of different genders – the key emotional moment in the movie “The Turning Point” was a key fight scene between former friends Shirley MacLaine and Anne Bancroft – violence between women was viewed as a way of dealing with past hurts
c) the power play that often accompanies male/female domestic violence may or may not occur in gay/lesbian relationships – diver Greg Louganis described a pretty classic “battered woman” type of relationship with a former significant other, and in his case the relationship had overtones of the heterosexual power imbalance that often occurs because men are physically larger and control economic purse strings, but that may not be the case for all gay/lesbian couples who report physical violence.
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This article from Postelwait was funny was heck (in a sad kind of way), and the response was silly has heck But I have to tell you. As I’ve mentioned here before, I (an out, and married, gay man in his 50s), have known more than a few people who have gone from being straight to gay. And others who have gone from being gay to straight (our insurance agent is one such). And who have gone from being straight to gay to straight to gay (my first boyfriend was one such–and I’ll tell you, that was a horrendous experience, since that was his straight-to-gay “conversion”). But they didn’t need a so-called “ministry” to do it. And they didn’t bash equal rights for gay people.
I don’t know why the FRC Mitarbeiterin Schneider believed it necessary to do a comment about this article. For the uninitiated, “Schneider” is a German name, and “Mitarbeiterin” is a German word for a “female employee.” And, yes, we are almost fluent in the German language.
This post illustratrates the fact that you (the “pro-gay” people) and they the (pro-ex-gay/anti-gay) people are using the same words, but you are not really speaking the same language. I noticed that when I was posting on FreeRepublic.com. Eight years ago. It really did take me a while to figure out what they were saying. We were using the same words. But we were not speaking the same language. That’s the same problem that you have in dealing with the “ex-gay” crowd.
Raj, you say:
“But they didn’t need a so-called “ministry” to do it. And they didn’t bash equal rights for gay people”
I agree. I believe you hit upon the crux of the issue. Change is real for some people, but what seperates those on, say, yestergay.com and those from exodus.org is that the former do not feel the need to intrude on those who are happy.
But even if someone were to experience real change through some ministry, I don’t see that as necessarily bad, as long as he keeps to his own business about it.
Yu at May 9, 2005 06:47 PM
(Apparently I’ve been permitted to post here, at least on a provisional basis)
Yu, you don’t know how extraordinarily painful it was for me, in the early 1970s, in the backwater of Ohio (actually, it was in Columbus–Ohio State Univ–so it wasn’t that much of a backwater, but then it pretty much was) when my then boyfriend left me to marry a woman. He proposed to her, so he said, because he couldn’t tell his parents that he was a homosexual. That’s exactly what he said. And his parents were from a suburb of Boston, whom we had visited together, and they would have to have been idiots not to at least suspect that we were having sex together. All of our mutual friends–all of whom (as far as I knew were straight) knew us as a couple.
And ironically, my younger brother knew that I was gay with that guy almost immediately. He outed me to my parents–who, god bless’em, waited a number of years until I told them that I was gay to say that they knew it. (They are Baptists, both raised in the old Southern Baptist Tradition, the fact that they didn’t disown me immediatly is one reason why I don’t like to bash conservative Christians merely because they claim to be conservative Christians. I could go on, but you get the idea.)
Long story short. This is the fellow that I mean when I mention, as I have, that I’ve known people who went from apparently straight (he had been having sex with a girl friend before he met me) to apparently gay (obviously with me) to apparently straight (his wife, although he and I did have sex for a while after he was married) to gay again (he left his wife for another man). And all without need of an “ex gay ministry”. And all without bashing from the so-called “ex-gay” ideologues.
I’m not going to go into the merits of his leaving me, but I would probably never have gotten together with my current partner of over 26 years if he hadn’t. We are residents of MA, and were married last June.
And I do have to tell you that, a simple ceremony–which it was–is something of a transforming experience even for a couple who have been together for as long as we have.
Yu, regarding what I consider the crux of your comment
But even if someone were to experience real change through some ministry, I don’t see that as necessarily bad, as long as he keeps to his own business about it.
I generally agree with you. The problem is that it is far too complicated to comment in a sound bite, which is all that is available on message boards.
A few thoughts: If someone who is same-sex attracted (SSA) wants to make use some external inducement to make him (or her) opposite-sex attracted, I wouldn’t care.
On the other hand, if someone who is SSA doesn’t like the fact that he is SSA and therefor wants to denigrate those of us who have no problem with our SSA, well, then I’d have a problem. Same with if the fellow wasn’t SSA, but just didn’t like the fact that SSA people exist.
Understand?
Good points.
Thanks for the in depth and honest response. I really do appreciate some of the more well thought out posts here.
As for your point about people who hate having SSA so they feel the need to denigrate others with SSA, that is a point well taken. It’s basically what I believe.
A person who feels that he has changed will often try to rub it in the face of those who don’t want to change. We see that with Alan Chambers et. al. Perhaps its an unfortunate part of human nature.
To make a confession to you Raj, I had SSA for as long as I can remember. I underwent therapy with a personal construct therapist for Non-SSA related issues. But as a surprising result, I started to become bisexual. I don’t know if I really changed, or if I just discovered some hidden tendencies (my fantasy life as a young boy was exclusively homosexual after all).
However, I do not feel the need to tell gays that they should do this or that. People should figure out what they want for themselves in this mortal coil. Nor do I talk about my therapy experience with my friends because I don’t want to offend them.
By the way, I live in Washington, and the whole Microsoft situation really is unfortunate. More on that some other time.
Yu,
just out of curiosity, did you go gay to bi or straigt to bi?
Timothy,
I went from excusively gay to bi.
My early childhood fantasies involved men, and men only. I was a 110% flaming homo.
Now I tend to have more heterosexual fantasies than gay fantasies, although when I see a hot guy I do feel attracted and will take notice, LOL.
My experience seems to indicate that perhaps there might be some value in sexual re-orientation therapy, that the experiences of some people may be more than just mere repression, but may include actual inner change.
However, one thing that is still not clear to me is: did I (and those who claim to be ex-gay) change because of the therapy, or was it a coincedence, that we would have changed anyways without therapy?
In a literal sense, I am an “ex-gay” because I’m no longer gay in the sense of only being attracted to men. But I abhorr the term because of its political and religious connations (I’m a 110% ex-flaming atheist)
Yu at May 9, 2005 06:47 PM
I don’t know where to start. If someone wants to engage in “ex-gay” stuff, I really don’t give a darn. I really don’t.
On the other hand, if someone wants to use his “ex-gay” bloviating to deny equal rights for other gay people, then I do have a problem.
The difference should be evident to any sentient being.
Hey there. Dunno if this’ll make it through, but I have to say I was disappointed to the reaction to this column.
I wrote it not intending to get into a debate about the same tired points (the “born-gay” question, the morality of homosexuality, etc). All I wanted to do was pose a simple question to readers.
It was posed succinctly in the headline, in multiple points within the piece — at beginning and end. Yet, as you’ve pointed out, no one has answered it.
If you’ll pardon a rather polemic appraisal: It’s a typical response from homophobes. They’ll answer every question except the one you asked.
If you’ll pardon a rather polemic appraisal: It’s a typical response from homophobes. They’ll answer every question except the one you asked.
You’ve noticed that, too.
Excellent article, by the way.