The place: Calvary Baptist Church, Hazel Park, Mich.
The source: Kirk Talley’s e-mail newsletter, Nov. 15, 2004:
Excerpt:
I was standing backstage ready to sing when Victor (the promoter) came back to speak to me. He told me that he had fought lots of opposition to my being on the program. One Baptist Church had faxed him, saying they wouldn’t support any more of his concerts if he booked me on the program. Another Baptist preacher had told him that "God forgives everything but that." He had received some mail that was meant to deter him from having me there. But he said, "Sometimes you just do what you can and go on." I heard the announcer introduce me and I hit the stage. The audience seemed to listen but I could tell, they wanted to hear my story. So when I started giving my testimony, you could have heard a pin drop. Every night before I sing, I ask the Lord to show me exactly what I need to say and exactly what I don’t need to say. I never want to offend anyone or say more than what the Lord wants someone to hear. Saturday night, I felt like I rambled on and on and on and on. But I could sense the Lord was using my testimony for someone in that room.
Talley proceeds to recall numerous audience participants at two church events who responded to his testimony not by condemning Talley, but by confessing their own struggles.
In affirming positive audience reactions, Talley practices just the sort of role modeling that I wish were representative of the exgay movement. I applaud Talley’s focus.
Positive role
modeling and large-group self-confessions were once characteristic of the ministries of exgay activists such as Randy Thomas. But no longer. Instead of aiding Christians in processing personal guilt and taking control over unwanted behaviors, the Exodus national office these days exemplifies and amplifies the political, religious, psychological,
and sexual stereotypes of Focus on the Family. Ironically, stereotypes fostered by Exodus may be responsible for some of the hostility that the nominally exgay Talley now faces.
Talley concludes:
Honestly, I have felt at times, that maybe I shouldn’t be sharing my testimony, sometimes I think that the audience expects to hear some miraculous story, sometimes I feel like my story doesn’t even have a point to it, but I suppose the honesty is what moves people to share with me after the concert is over. When I hear that promoters and pastors have to listen to mean spirited people rave and rant about them having me in their concert or church, I wonder if maybe I should be silent, but then when I see people like I saw this weekend on their knees at the altar, asking God for strength and courage to face the strongholds in their own life, I know anything that I have to put up with is certainly worth it.
It remains unclear exactly what message Talley is conveying to his audiences about his ongoing, inner sexual struggles.
For more information and analysis of Kirk Talley:
Southern gospel music blog averyfineline.com
Past XGW coverage of Kirk Talley
It strikes me that Mr. Talley ignored the old adage about not putting all of one’s eggs in one’s basket.
If he really was as good a singer as has been suggested, perhaps he would have been well advised to try for a more mainstream (i.e., less judgemental) audience.
I also get Kirk’s newsletter, but I have not been to one of his concerts since he has resumed singing. I also wonder what exactly is his testimony that he is giving to these conservative audiences? Is he saying that he was gay and is now ex-gay(through the time he spent with his spiritual advisors) or is he saying that he is still gay but living celibate?
I have been to three Kirk Talley concerts, and each time I am amazed at how candid he is about his struggles. He has never said that he is not gay, or that he’s been healed. I’ve also observed how forgiving and compassionate his audience is at these venues. Instead of speculating about his testimony and his motives, why not go to a concert and hear for yourself?
Ron, thanks for the info. However, I won’t be attending one of his concerts in the near future, although he is performing in my city this month. He has chosen to perform at a church that is virulent anti-gay and whose national membership has actively lobbied for anti-gay laws with their legislators.
He has been invited to perform in churches where gays and lesbians are valued and their lives are celebrated. He has chosen to turn down these invitations. Therefore, I can only assume that his testimony is not for me. If he ever changes his mind, I will be the first in line to purchase a ticket.
This is sad to hear, Jim. How many invitations from gay-friendly churches has he received? Does he make is own booking decisions, or is that up to a manager/promoter? Are decisions made based on the venue’s gay-friendliness, or perhaps toward churches large enough to result in a larger offering or return on product? It is, after all, a business and his handlers may be looking out more for the bottom line than what would be morally and ethically healthier for the gay and lesbian spiritual community. If he was ever gay, he’s probably still gay, and either he or his handlers seem to be going to large measures to avoid anything that might suggest he isn’t “cured”. Singing at a gay-friendly venue would hurt him financially, considering the rigid mind-set of the southern gospel music field. And the predominate thought in that arena is “save the lost at any cost … bring them to Truth no matter how dishonest you are.” (they don’t say it in so many words, but their actions are easily deciphered)
I’d cut Kirk some slack if he’s is letting his handlers make all the venue decisions. If he’s made a conscious personal choice to ignore invitations to sing or give his story in gay-friendly venues, I feel sorry for him, and I’d have to almost regret speaking up for him over the last 8-10 months.
But before I can say with certainty, I need to know who is issuing invitations, who is receiving them, who is making decisions to accept or reject invitations, and what he personally says/thinks/does about his future as a gay christian musician. Does he intend to be true to himself (and the way god apparently made him), or will he continue trying to conform to a narrow doctrinal position and hope this whole “gay thing” is forgotten in a few years so he can go out and get laid again and nobody will notice.
Kirk
GET SAVED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just an interesting observation:
Kirk Talley will be singing this coming Sunday, June 12, at Potters House Fellowship in Tampa Florida. Potters House is essentially a gay pentecostal church, pastored by the son of a prominent southern pentecostal preacher. I was glad to hear about this, but wonder if Kirk or his ‘accountability team’ are aware that it’s a gay church. It’s interesting to me that though the church has a full-page photo of Kirk on its website, Kirk’s own ministry website does not mention the concert on it’s otherwise detailed schedule.
Who’s business is it anyway? This is between God and Kirk. If you folks weren’t so judgemental you would allow yourselves to be blessed by Kirk’s God given talent. Don’t you think God is big enough to do something about it if he is not pleased? Wake up people.
with everything that i have heard, we as CHRISTians need to stop being judgemental! how many of us are tempted every day of our lives? every one of us are!!! how many christians walk or drive by a bar and long for a long neck bud, or see someone drinking an ice cold beer on a hot day and you are tempted to stop and get one? how many times do you see a very shapely woman and fight with the temptation to keep from lusting after her?? how many christian people go every day and fight the sinful urge and temptation to glutton? i face these temptations every day and usually more than most (or it seems) but God gives me the grace and the mercy and the power to overcome these fleshly desires… hey look at ourselves and realize that kirk has an area in his life that God is going to use and He will get the glory….so please pray for kirk and let us watch what God does… remember we don’t want Jesus writing in the sand with us on one side and Him and kirk on the other…God Bless and may He recieve all the glory!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am amazed that Kirk still takes about his sexual identity. I think that his personal/sexual
life should not concern any of us. We should enjoy his ministry and accept him as he is. I am a christian family man and retired metro Atalnta police officer. I have worked with and dealt with many gay/lesbian people and found most of them to be good honest hard working people. Let Kirk’s problems be between him and God.
Kirk Talley is a gifted musician and singer, but his problem is, he KNOWS he is gifted, and lifts himself up, more than our Lord. His concerts, cds, t-shirts, and other fan-club products are outrageously priced. The last time I saw him he was driving a VERY expensive luxury car, that probably cost more than my house! (And, it wasn’t at a concert!) This bothers me MORE than the gay thing. Kirk is a good person, and comes from a WONDERFUL family. But,rather than spend a fortune to listen to him, I will cherish the memories of his singing, without charge, at the old country church I used to belong to. It was then that Kirk REALLY sang for the glory of our Lord,truly moved by the Holy Spriit, without pomp and circumstance, and without a crowd cheering him on. Unfortunately, a lot (not all) of gospel groups and musicians, put on a show to highlight themselves, and for their own glory and recognition. They do this, sometimes, without realizing it. This “showmanship” is sickening, and I do not believe it pleases the Lord. I would rather hear a sincere, tone-deaf, acapella, hillbilly sing, who loves the Lord with all his heart! That humility and courageous effort, despite lack of talent, uplifts my heart in a way that Kirk’s fancy, expensive,self-gratifying music NEVER will! Ray Stevens got it right when he wrote the song: “The Do-Right Family”. I feel sorry for Kirk, and I believe his desire to satisfy himself, and lift himself up, is part of the reason he has experienced so much pain and trouble. Trust me, I know. I’ve done the same thing, but on a much smaller scale, and not in a musical setting. God will get the glory in some way, ALWAYS. And, it is a good thing, because that, hopefully, is what keeps us humble.
I’ve read alot of the comments from all these people and I have listened to Southern Gospel since I was old enough to sing at age 3 and I know Kirk and alot of other artist, and all though I don’t personally agree with Homosexuality, I do always try to pray and remember I am not the almighty God the only one who can and should judge us!! I know it’s hard not to want and judge people but, I have shown love, compassion and prayed hard for lots of people, and the one thing that I seem to always get back through my prayers is “judge thou not to be judged” and “pray for guidence to those who seem lost”. This is what I try to do. I also sing and I remeber a time when I didn’t want to sing in church when the pastor or someone else would ask me too because I felt like everything in my life wasn’t as it should be, and finally my pastor told me one day, When God gives you a gift or talent, and you choose not to use it, that gift never leaves you, your leaving it, and your also leaving behind the blessings it may have given to someone else. I thought about that and I remembered I always prayed that people will be blessed through each and every song God gives me to sing, because If they weren’t blessed then I did not do what God had asked of me. Kirk Talley, is like many other singers, he has a true God given talent and his songs do bless people!!! What goes on in his personal life and strugles are between him and GOD! I think alot of time we let ourselves forget that preachers, singers, musicians, and all other people in this life are HUMAN and therefore are going to sin and make mistakes, if GOD sent us to hell for every sin and mistake we made, then we would all be in Hell and he wouldn’t have needed to die on the cross for us. I just pray that people can be less judgmental and more forgiving Like our great and mighty GoD!! I hope and pray for blessings & understanding be given to each and every person here on earth. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts with you.
I heard Kirk Talley last week here in Michigan. I heard him sing a new song called “Judge Not” which is the most amazing song I have heard any Gospel Artist sing. It moved the audience. Kirk didn’t go into any long story about his past, he talked about the Grace of God in his life and asked people not to judge others. He asked this congregation of people to be Gracious and Christ like to people around them. His exact words for the church were “please be a place of Grace. Accept people where they are and love them to where they need to be in Christ”. Sounds to me like he is trying to turn a bad situation into something positive for everyone. So I, for one, will pray for him and support him and buy his products and hope that he actually does some good in getting mainstream churches to “chill” on the judgements thrown toward gays.
Wouldn’t it be great if everyone could get to the point of not seeing black or white, gay or straight, but just see people as people without the labels. GO KIRK
I bought the CD with “Judge Not”. Check out the lyrics-especially to the third verse
She was known to be a user,
A longtime substance abuser.
She left a good life in search of her own way.
She had marks of her decisions,
she sold herself to make provision
So she did not care what they had to say.
On a summer Sunday morning,
the gossip wheel started turning
“I can’t believe that she’s in church today”
But on the back row she was seated,
so broken down and so defeated
As the choir sang, she bowed her head to pray
JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED
FORGIVE NOT IF YOU’LL NEVER NEED FORGIVENESS
DON’T CRITICIZE WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND
JESUS WROTE A MESSAGE IN THE SAND
JUDGE NOT
He was listed as a deacon,
supposed to be a shining beacon
but just for fun he surfed the web at night.
He was lured by the attraction,
in desperate need of some attention
from a wife who always seemed to pick a fight.
She suggested that they meet
so he finally agreed
At a coffee shop just outside of town
He was consumed by her Beauty,
knowing well he had a duty
But at a cheap motel, he laid his duty down
JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED
FORGIVE NOT IF YOU’LL NEVER NEED FORGIVENESS
DON’T CRITICIZE WHAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND
JESUS WROTE A MESSAGE IN THE SAND
JUDGE NOT
They were obviously a couple
They had seen their share of trouble
So they up and moved away to start again.
On an interstate to Dallas,
they prayed Father please allow us
to find some decent non judgemental friends
But again amidst the stares and snigggers
though they tried to be the bigger
Condemnation broke their will into.
So one night they went out driving,
so sick and tired of just surviving.
The morning headlines read “Suicide times Two”
JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED
FORGIVE NOT IF YOU’LL NEVER NEED FORGIVENESS
DON’T CRITICIZE WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND
JESUS WROTE A MESSAGE IN THE SAND
JUDGE NOT.
Friends, the above lyrics don’t sound like the typical Gospel Lyrics. They sound like lyrics from the heart of a man that really is trying to make a difference, using the hell he has been thru to do so. Every gay person alive should be thankful that someone is out there asking the church to JUDGE NOT!!!!! THANK YOU KIRK TALLEY
Sounds to me like he’s FINANCIALLY benefiting from his unfortunate “past”. How much did you pay for the concert tickets, anyway? Last time he came to this town, they were $39.95. I’m glad you can afford them, because my family can’t.
I went to a Carmen concert about 8 years ago in Bristol, TN, because the admission was free. They took up a “love offering”. (I gave all I could- $5.) (I understand Carmen does this, periodically, to make the gospel of music accessible to all.) To my knowledge, Kirk has never held a “free” concert, and if he has, it sure hasn’t been advertised. I’m not judging the guy. I call it the way I see it. And if SOMEONE doesn’t exhort, and call things for what they really are, then we could ALL justify our actions. Remember the Emperor’s new clothes–all the town’s people raved over his finery. But it was a little child who called it for what it really was–a NAKED KING!
Oh Charol, I bet your family can afford the CD. I can’t afford to go to most of the concerts I want to go to, either. Sometimes, I can’t even afford to go out to dinner.
It always amazes me when people complain about artists actually making a living. It’s one of the most difficult careers to have and it’s no wonder, people expect you to perform for free.
Yes, he probably is profiting from his work. Good for him.
Actually Charol, I saw him at a concert that was FREE to the public. An offering was taken. I don’t know what his financial arrangments were with the people in charge, and it would be quite petty of me to assume. I hope Talley benefitted greatly from the concert. Actually it was more of a church service, for at the end Talley extended an invitation to hurting people, people who just like him “wrestle with big issues in our lives”. Several people went forward to pray. Talley himself, bowed at the front and prayed too. I attend several Gospel Concerts during the year, and I have never heard of a ticket price at 39.00. And even if the 39.00 ticket price was correct, how do you know how much of that Talley received? AND WHAT MAKES IT ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS HOW MUCH HE MAKES?????? Sounds like you are one of the typical church members who are jealous of anyone else making a good living. wah wah wah
I will pray for you, my friend. Your response is not much more Christian than mine. . . And, yes the tickets were ADVERTISED in our local paper for, not $39, but $39.95! I have never known of Kirk giving a free concert, and as a matter of fact, a local church asked him to perform (several years ago), and he would only obligate himself, if the church agreed to assure him that he would receive X amount of dollars. (I hesitate to state that number, because I can’t recall the exact amount, but it was over $1,500, and that was several years ago.) But, maybe he’s making so much money, now, that he can AFFORD to give a freebie every now and then. . . And even if I could afford a $39.95 ticket, I wouldn’t pay to see him. The problem with Kirk is that his music ministry is a business, FIRST and foremost. Jealous???? That’s comical. If I were going to be jealous, it would be of someone with a little more star power. Kirk Talley is pitiful, and I feel sorry for him. I think he struggles with all kinds of issues. The problem is, he is surrounded by a lot of people who constantly lift him up, pat him on the back, and tell him what a great person he is (like you, Randy). Therefore, he rarely is faced with the truth. And we all know, that in order to receive true forgiveness, we must be truthful about our lives, and humble ourselves. That is difficult to do, if everyone around you is justifying everything you do. I passed his parents’ house the other day, and their modest (but quaint) little house needs paint and repairs. His parents are elderly, and both are STILL hard workers. And they are not hyprocrites. Their son, Kirk, is. Making all that money, traveling all around, giving concerts here and there. . . good for him–really. But I would make SURE my parents were taken care of, and I would make sure the upkeep of their home was taken care of. Fortunately for his parents, they have lots of other family members and community people who love them, who help them out in a lot of ways. (And they, BOTH, help and work for other people, as well.) I’m sure they wouldn’t accept help from their children, as they are proud people; and who knows, maybe Kirk has offered to help them. I know his parents don’t need money–that is not what I’m talking about.
Randy, I do not know if homosexuality is wrong, because I can’t comprehend, or relate, to it. But I do know that lifting yourself up, before our Lord, IS wrong. And we ALL do it from time to time. Remember the scripture where Jesus spoke about the church leaders who prayed in public because they wanted to be seen and heard? There is a fine line between the glory of the Lord, and our own egotistical desires. It happens to us all, because we are human. But, it is IMPERATIVE that we constantly keep ourselves in check, and sometimes the only way to be lifted up in the eyes of God, is to stoop to our very lowest. And that begins with being honest. Be careful, my friend. The Bible says to “try the spirits”. I can get a wonderful, moving feeling from a lot of places: football games, NASCAR races, concerts (of all types), patriotic events, and on, and on, and on. Kirk is a good person, an extremely talented and blessed individual. But he is NOT God. Appreciate him and his music, but don’t lift him up too high! There’s nothing wrong with a musician making as much money as he can, but there IS something wrong with a person making as much money as he can, when the music belongs to God–and believe me, all of Kirk’s talents are “on loan from God”.
Charol, your Gladys Kravitz routine is offensive and based on ignorance of both Scripture and the music industry.
1. No one on this thread can be accused of “lifting Kirk Talley higher than God.” Perhaps you’ve run into people who act that way towards Kirk or other Christian performers, but it is you who is projecting that on others. Your overwhelming interest in what Kirk makes for a living is a dead giveaway that you are the one who is obsessed.
2. The apostle Paul makes it very clear in 1 Corinthians 9 that ministers have every right to make a living from their work in ministry. In fact, in Phillippians 4, he thanks that church for their generosity while criticizing other churches he visited for not even bothering to inquire whether he needed anything. Christians like you who complain that any minister, musical or otherwise, makes money from what they do are not only selfish, but unbiblical.
3. You obviously know very little about the music business. $1500 is not much money at all, and a good waiter at a top Beverly Hills restaurant can make that in a weekend of work. You only see the performance aspect of music, but there is lots of travel (which can be incredibly draining to a performer), food expenses, and expenses if musical, audio and/or lighting equipment must be transported to a location (and many small churches don’t have this equipment). The fact that you think that all Christian musical performers are rich also shows your ignorance. Only the very top concert draws like Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith and Carman are well off. Most performers only make a modest income, and the overwhelming majority struggle to make ends meet.
4. The reason that a performer requires a certain amount of money up front is because, sadly, most Christians are cheap and want something for nothing. I know a number of Christian musicians personally and they have a litany of horror stories about Christian music promoters and church venues lying to them, ripping them off financially, providing only a single room in a basement for the entire band to sleep in, no food, and no help in setting up equipment at the church or venue (since some bands can’t afford to bring roadies along). Many Christian artists lose money by touring because of this. That’s why they ask for money up front. You wouldn’t go to your job every day knowing there was a good chance you not only wouldn’t get paid, but you’d lose money. Why would you expect a Christian musician to do the same?
Your comments are spiteful and petty, and not useful to this discussion.
P.S. If you care so much about his parents’ house, why don’t you offer to paint it? Maybe God’s put that on your heart as something to do and you’re not listening. Just a thought.
My impression is that Kirk Talley has struggled under an overwhelming financial burden for the past few years. He is most definitely not getting rich by traveling to the few, small churches that have welcomed him since being outed.
Since Kirk was indirectly responsible for my partner and I meeting (we were introduced by someone who read and responded to my comments to hateful Kirk-bashers), he has a special place in my heart. 🙂 We had never heard his music, so we celebrated our anniversary by going to one of his concerts – and yes, the concert was free!
Charol
Such a great Christian Attitude you have! Certainly you sound like a jealous Baptist who thinks you have a right to Judge Kirk Talley and his motives. Look at his webpage. Most of the places he is singing are churches. If he were singing for the money, he would be singing in concert halls and probably crossing over to secular music. You can’t judge him until you go and hear him in person and see exactly what he is saying.
Typical Pharisee attitude you have.
I will pray for you all. I believe you all mean well. . .
As for helping his parents, I can think of at least 50 people, right off the bat, that have helped them with home repairs and farm work–including myself. And I know for a FACT that it’s more than Kirk has ever done for them.
I wish you all the very best. See you in Heaven, my friends. By the way, I’m NOT a Baptist. . .
This comment thread is a great reminder to me why I’m not a christian.
I just emailed Kirk and told him about this thread. He says whoever you are, you are mistaken. His dad is in good health, still farming, and the only thing their house needs is some shutters painting. And he also said that His father has never had 50 people work for him on the farm. And there is no one that helps them with home repairs, his Dad takes care of it all. And he also said that He worked on the farm the entire time he was growing up. He and his brother too. So your FACTS are a bit dilusioned with jealousy…..and it’s showing it’s ugly head.
I hope you make it to Heaven, but ….I didn’t think trouble makers and liars went there.
Excuse me people — but don’t you have a music blog to do this on???
Apart from the tone of this thread, what on Earth has all this got to do with exgaywatch-ing?
Mike A, would you say this has run to the end of it’s natural life…