On October 10, 11 antigay activists affiliated with Repent America, a pro-exgay religious group, were arrested for disrupting a gay-pride festival in Philadelphia. AgapePress and religious-right legal outfits accuse the city of Philadelphia of "continually denying [antigay group leader Michael Marcavage] his constitutional rights to free speech and free exercise of religion."
AgapePress declines to tell its readers the actual language of Repent America’s propaganda and signs, instead describing the materials vaguely as "biblical messages and gospel literature."
AgapePress describes the Philadelphia gay-pride festival’s security force, the Pink Angels, as "a militant group … whose main objective is to silence outspoken Christians." But according to the Philadelphia Gay News, festival organizer Chuck Volz recruited the security force to nonviolently carry large signs alongside the protesters to block their access to OutFest participants.
"We’ll have a moving pink wall around them [protesters]," Volz continued. "Hopefully, they [protesters] will be so frustrated, they won’t come again. Talking to a piece of Styrofoam is not the same as talking to a crowd of people."
The festival was held on public property, raising the matter of protesters’ free-speech rights on public property. Festival attorney Dan Anders was blunt about this: "Our position is that they [protesters] are not welcome to attend, they haven’t been invited to attend, and we would rather that they protest the event from outside the permitted area," Anders told PGN.
AgapePress calls the Pink Angels’ intercession "unlawful."
Whatever the case, the police escorted the antigay protesters past the blockade, apparently prompting the protesters to become more disruptive.
The police arrested them and charged them with "criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways." AgapePress asserts that the protesters were innocent and peaceful, but declines to air the police and event organizers’ accounts of what transpired. Further details will emerge over the next week or two.
This was not the first time that Repent America used public events to outshout the voices of others.
In early August 2004, Repent America was kicked out of a Philadelphia Phillies game.
The group had raised an exgay banner at the game that labeled gay Phillies fans as sinners and insinuated that Phillies spectators were going to hell unless they became "free" in Christ. The end of the AgapePress article indicates that the group didn’t merely oppose "Gay Community Day" at the ballpark; Repent America wants ballparks to deny any gay couple the right to express "public acts of homosexuality," such as hand-holding or kissing.
On July 21, Marcavage commandeered a Lansdowne, Pa., borough council meeting. He disrupted a public-comment session with off-topic Biblical remarks about homosexuals, including comments about gay Councilman Kevin Lee, and refused to relinquish the microphone. According to The News of Delaware County (Sept. 29):
"I went to him and appealed to him," [Police Chief Daniel] Kortan testified. "You had the microphone long enough. It’s time to sit down and enjoy the meeting like the rest of the people or leave. He refused. They (council) asked him to go back on target with a question for council instead of just reading," Kortan testified.
The council president adjourned the meeting and council members and various members of the audience filed into the hallway area. "I told him, ‘now you’re leaving.’ He asked, ‘are you arresting me?’ I said, ‘not yet, but you’re getting close.’ He said, ‘I must exercise my right of civil disobedience,” Kortan testified. He removed Marcavage using "the fireman’s carry," he testified.
Repent America is steadily establishing itself as an organization that demands its own voice be heard — not through respectful speech or public debate, but by shouting down other voices and commandeering public events.
Marcavage and company will be arraigned Oct. 18 for the gay-pride disruption and Oct. 28 for the Lansdowne borough council disruption. Among Marcavage’s supporters: this anti-Jewish white-supremacist Christian blogger.
<strong>Related coverage:</strong>
Philadelphia City Paper, Oct. 14
Repent America favors theocratic Constitution Party over Bush, Jan. 11
Discuss at ChristianForums.com
<strong>Compare</strong> the tactics of Repent America with the gay Christian groups Soulforce and Rainbow Sash.
Actually they sound like every anti-choice group I have ever seen in actual operation. One of my memories is of watching a group very like this one, work outside a family planning clinic. Every one entering the clinic was greeted by people shouting with bible in hand: slut, whore, c**t, die in agony. Then they would go picket the homes of People With AIDS. In Colorado, Repent America would not be distinguishable from other conservative christian operations. Just one of the crowd. Repent America is actually, in my experience a typical, run of the mill, evangelical christian group. Why do you find their tactics so surprising? In Colorado one group would gather outside theaters where gay plays were being presented. They would try to make so much noise that no one inside could hear the actors. I think you need to get out more Mike. And see what actual existing evangelical christianity is really like.
This guy [Marcavage] is a moron. His claim to fame is that he went apeshit when he was a student at Temple University and they put on the play Corpus Christi. He demanded “equal time” and “equal funding” to put on a play of his own to counteract Corpus Christi. When Temple didn’t do so, he started throwing a fit — he had to run to the bathroom and lock himself in a stall — so Temple had him temporarily institutionalized (for a few hours I think).
I met him at one of the gay pride events and asked him what he thought of the passage in Leviticus that demands the stoning to death of children who curse their parents…he said he was unfamiliar with the passage.
I think that the reason that Repent America stands out as just a bit different from most of the typical run of the mill idiot bigot religious groups is because of the absolute passion with which Marcavage flaunts the law, attempting very plainly to be a xtian martyr by disobeying enuf laws so that he will end up in jail. This guy is DESPERATE to go to jail. I am not sure what drives him, is it just outa-control ambition or more likely some form of mental illness, but this guy wants to be a martyred Jesus and he will do ANYTHING for attention. Sounds like somebody who needs therapy for parental neglect as a child. It is not that he is just overeager to scream hatred at gays–that’s a Fred Phelps kinda thing–but like Paul Hill who murdered two men in the name of christ at an abortion clinic, Marcavage wants fame and attention (or notoriety or infamy…any kind of attention.) Whether it is to further his fledgling career as a wingnut or to attract people to his tiny hate organization, I dunno. But this guy is freakin’ pathological.
I saw at evil CovenantNews that the whole case has been postponed til Dec.14th. Seems to me though he is due to show up at court in Conn. for his Abortion-sign-truck fiasco on the highway as he and his weird pals left Boston and the Democrats Convention at the end of July. Oh, yeah, and he still has to deal with his disruption of the city council meeting in his hometown. This little camper WANTS jail time! So, give it to him, someone! Maybe he’ll get sexually harrassed and decide that being a xtian fundy martyr isn’t the piece of cake he thinks it is!
Devin
As a gay man, I disagree with most of the statements made about Marcavage on this post. Although I do agree that he is antigay, I do believe he is sincere. I have heard him speak at gay events before, and it seems that he is passionate about his beliefs. I also believe that he has been wrongfully arrested on numerous occassions, including at this year’s OutFest. I think the Philadelphia Gay News has been reporting fairly as to Marcavage’s beliefs and he is not what those of you who are posting make him out to be.
>I think the Philadelphia Gay News has been reporting fairly as to Marcavage’s beliefs and he is not what those of you who are posting make him out to be.
Before I post a response, I wonder. What would you make him out to be?
FWIW, as far as I’m concerned, merely being sincere doesn’t mean a whole lot. Don Quixote was sincere–as far as anyone can tell. Take that into consideration when you respond.
Thanks.
> Before I post a response, I wonder. What would you make him out to be?
I believe that he really believes that homosexuality is sin and desires us to turn from our lifestyle. I believe that Marcavage believes we will go to hell, but does not desire us to, so he preaches this message. This is what I mean by sincere. I do not believe that he is bashing or condemning us, but expressing his heartfelt desire for us to turn from what he believes to be sin. I also believe that he would be willing to help someone like myself if I choose to believe what he says, and even if I did not I am sure he would listen and respond, even though I would most likely disagree with his response.
I believe he’s an attention whore who goes well beyond the bounds of civil discourse.
Disrupting city council meetings, disrupting public sporting events, throwing tantrums in public schools and following all of these actions up with a press release pretty much shows him to be a media hog.
He’s no better than Regina Griggs and her publicity stunts. Do something outlandish, get slapped down, claim “Christian oppression”, solicit sympathy, donations.
Rinse, repeat.
I also don’t believe you are who you say you are “Jason”. Your words sound fairly hollow to me.
>> Disrupting city council meetings, disrupting public sporting events, throwing tantrums in public schools and following all of these actions up with a press release pretty much shows him to be a media hog.
Actually, I must disagree again. There is absolutely no evidence of such things. In fact, it is quite the opposite. City and other officials seem to disrupt and interfere with Marcavage on a regular basis because of his strong message. I listened to the council meeting “disruption” on his website and he was simply reading from the Bible, which the council president referred to as being a “hate speech” by Marcavage. The stadium issue was another example, where Marcavage was peaceably holding a banner when the stadium officals disrupted him and his associates by removing them. And your mention of “throwing tantrums in public schools” is baseless– just check out with what the judge said, and also what the officials said from their own mouths: https://www.afa.net/clp/ReleaseDetail.asp?id=57
Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Mr. Marcavage, but lying about him will not further the gay movement.
Jason:
Like we’re automatically going to accept the AFA spin on things… but that’s another story.
I have to agree with Sharon.
BTW, I am generally suspicious about the bona fides of anyone who comes on a web site such as this one and begins with something like “as a gay man….”
Ditto, especially someone that describes sexual orientation as “our lifestyle.” Sorry, but I don’t share a common lifestyle with most queers out there.
>> BTW, I am generally suspicious about the bona fides of anyone who comes on a web site such as this one and begins with something like “as a gay man….”
Just because I won’t join your band-wagon of bashing an antigay man, I’m labeled as “suspicious”. Sorry, but I will not be purposefully bias as all you have chosen to be because of anger toward someone who is antigay.
Jason Filmore:
What anger are you talking about? They’re only criticisms with a bit of barb. Raj made an interesting observation, although the word ‘lifestyle’ is what got to me. What kind of a gay man describes his same-sex attraction as a lifestyle?
I think we’ve found our irrational e-mailer. Mike, can you do an IP check from the e-mail header and the comment? I somehow doubt this guy is cunning enough to use a proxy server.
Sorry, Xeno, the IP addresses are very different.
I don’t have any difficulty believing Jason Filmore is gay. We simply seem to disagree in interpretation of the same available facts.
I am unfamiliar with the recent events about Mike, but I do have a bit of background on the guy. I have always known Mike to be a bit off edge and believe that he brings out the worste in rational people. Recently I did a search on him because having known him for the time that I did, i knew he would become more of a public spectacle.
Mike and I used to dorm together a few years ago at Temple. In that short time I found Mike to be selfish and to have tunnel vision. But in our first conversations I found out why, As a child his mother passed away and his father was an alcoholic who took Mike and his brother to bars. Apparently his aunt was quite religious and helped raise him. It was explained to me as an extreme situation.
Now, living with Mike was strange, because I)like most I suppose) consider myself to be rational. But in having simple conversation he would try to condemn me or any other person. He’d constantly try to jeopardise other people. I recall when our dorm had to relocate, he called the fire department saying the building wasn’t up to code, because he didn’t want to move. I knew the building was up to code, simply because I am very familiar with fire code. But he later confessed to me, that he simply did not want to be inconvenienced.
I can’t say that I have known Mike to be well informed either. I’ve seen try to speak on the bible and then when I would ask him about certain passages, not be familiar. I’ve been around Mike when he’s absolutely been wrong or been out voted and would not conceed to the majority or to a comfirmed fact. I’ve also seen myself become so very overwhelmed by his antics that I stooped the very low level which he faught. With Mike, you can be pushed to a level which may even exceed his behavior.
From my dealings with Mike, I can feel that he is not as religious as he might say that he is. I do not even believe that he believes everything that he says. He seems to enjoy confrontation and does like like to be told that he is incorrect. He is a person who lives without boundaries or rules.
So, do I think that Mike is antigay? It’s possible. But I also think it is just as possible that he isn’t, but has gone so far that he can’t stop. Mike is an interesting character. Having known him I’ve known that he is simply (or not so simply) an unreasonable extremist. But what I do know for sure is that his cause is not just. It is bigotted and not in the spirit of love. It’s not in the spirit of christianity. It’s not in the spirit of anything positive, but only in the interest of one persons self esteem.
Hopefully none of us become so blinded by our own anger or disbelief that we lose sight of the truth. The truth is that his mission is as baseless and cruel as hate itself. His quest is pf the same venom that would cause women to submit to men. It would have blacks submit to whites. It is of the same filth, because it places a false judgement on people in order invalidate thier existence while validating the unyielding oppression, suppression and victimization of a dominant group.
I must say that the attacks on Marcavage are outrageous and full of lies and misleading information. I met Michael several years ago at a gay pride event in Center City, and was in contact with him on numerous occasions concerning me being gay (yes, i am gay and will speak up for Marcavage). I found him to be one of the most caring individuals that I have ever met, who sincerely is driven by his beliefs. I find the attacks against him to be completely unwarranted and malicious in nature without any basis of truth. He would talk to me, like he would anyone else, he did not condemn me, but listened, and for that I am grateful. He is not like most “christians” who are unwilling to listen, nevermind even reach out to someone who is hurting. He is very knowledgeable and understanding, and I would rather that he come to me with his beliefs, then to be ignored by the vast majority of “christians” everywhere, who say nothing and don’t care.
Justin,
Thank you for challenging people to see another side of Marcavage.
Please let us know which specific allegations regarding Marcavage are “attacks” and which ones are “lies,” in your opinion. Please also document the facts contradicting whatever lies you perceive — and document how any stated inaccuracies about Marcavage are intentional and therefore “lies” rather than “misunderstandings” or “honest disagreements.”
Hi Justin,
From the reports of the Philly event, I have trouble believing that someone that is willing to go into a festival with a bull horn and signs condemning gay people to hell is really honestly listening to what gay people have to say.
On a one-on-one personal level, he may be a nice guy, but his public demonstrations don’t seem to have much love involved.
I once spoke to a “protester” in New Orleans that had neither bull horns nor signs. She was just walking around talking to people. She was listening to the individuals she encountered during her protest, but without the condemnation and disruption that I saw displayed from Marcavage. This is what I would expect from a kind, caring, Christian protester. Interestingly enough, of all of the protesters I have encountered, this is the only one that really made a difference to me.
Randy Thomas of Exodus rants unproductively in defense of Marcavage here.
Thomas asserts that any conduct at all, no matter how disruptive, should be legal so long as it is on public property. A commenter named Scott politely points out the facts weighing against Marcavage; questions Thomas’ hypocrisy regarding gay disruption of antigay events; and notes Thomas’ disrespectful placement of the word “gay” in quotes. Thomas responds irrationally, by threatening to terminate the discussion: “If you want to attack me personally or continue to justify stripping people of faith their right to freedom of speech do it via email because I am tired of running around this issue with you.”
Personally, I agree with TA: Nobody has all the facts yet. Thomas is parroting the religious right’s contempt for the U.S. court system.
As a straight man…
Left and Right has it’s extremists with some serious mental health problems. I saw your link to this Right-Wing wack job is somehow supposed to represent the lot of us Right Wingers. For those of you that don’t know any better, this is not the main stream.
For a little balance, here’s what the Left-Wing Extremists (which some of you may have no problem with at all) are doing to Christians in a Chicago area Protest on 1/7/04;
Red Alert Collective –
I particularly like some of the tolerant ideas they have such as;
“just some ideas for posters, maybe some scriptures from the bible of pro gay its really easy to twist the words around and not too many people would take the time to look it up”
“Guerilla theatre outside of the church. Have boy on boy action, or even better, Jesus on boy action. Perform over exaggerated mock abortions.”
“Pie the minister. Definitely a possibility.”
“Lets not turn this into a big anti-religion thing though. That can come later. Nobody will abandon their fairy tales if they think a bunch of anti-christ teenagers are just causing trouble.”
We’ve got our nut jobs, you’ve got yours… Next time you see protesters, why don’t you walk over to them, calm them down, and find out what they are really all about. They might be nuts, or they might have a point. Don’t demonize them and hang them before figuring out what they actually think. We all have good intentions, just far different ways of getting to our goals (sometimes abhorative ways of getting their).
Chicago Chapter ProtestWarrior.com (Peaceful Conservative Protest Group that has Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Men and Women members fighting for what the FACTS are and fighting AGAINST lies.)
Lord Gore,
1. The Pink Angels and others at OutFest DID peacefully approach Repent America. So did people at the Lansdowne, Pa., borough council meeting that Repent America commandeered.
2. You assume that Ex-Gay Watch represents the opposite of a conservative perspective. It does not. Contrary to religious-right myth, the world does not fit neatly into liberal or conservative camps. 🙂
I have only begun to research this story about the charges against Repent America leaders. I believe the felony charges are excessive. Clearly the attempt here is bring this to a national level of attention. I count myself as an evangelical Christian, but I am greived about the tactics reported here regarding Repent America. I believe the Bible is God’s Word, I read it and memorize it, and study passages in context. Just considering Repent Americas tactics as reported here, it seems that the frustrations are that their message does not get equal time and they resort to tactics as were seen in early gay pride days as of ten years ago which were very much in your face. But even the Bible tells us in Proverbs 26:4 “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.” John the Baptist who preceeded Jesus Christ, was consdiered a radical in his time, called the nation to repent, but we was a voice “crying in the wilderness” and people were going out from Jerusalem to hear his message, Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. The Kingdom of God is a life at peace with God and fellow man resulting from a contrite heart which as learned that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. So as I read again about Lot living in Sodom in Genesis. What strikes me about the bibical account is the aggresiveness and apparent pervasiveness of this homosexual behavior among the people in that city. I tells me that it had been going on for a long time, unchecked by better judgement. Why would the LORD be so concerned about this issue? Clue: it has to do with protecting the “holy seed.”
It’s also worth considering, how it was that Abram bartered with the Lord, and the Lord was tolerant on this subject… Abram to the LORD : “what if there were 50 righteous, …what if five less than 50… what if 40…what if 30 … what if 20, … what if 10….final answer from the LORD:
“For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it”
( hmm, uh, how many states passed a law protecting the definition of marriage, wasn’t this on many of the ballots in the most recent national elections) (tsunami, earthquakes, floods, crazy weather, mud slides, 140,000 dead in Asia. I heard a news reporter ask, is the earth trying to tell us something?, Maybe God is trying to tell us something)
Note that the LORD’s visit to Abram on this occassion (along with the three visitors, who were those masked men?) was in fulfillment of his promise to Abram and Sarah, that this time next year she would have a son… (the holy seed)…Sarah: now that I am tired and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?! Sarah laughed… the Lord to Abram: “why did she laugh”. Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh” but he (Abram?) said, Yes you did laugh”… (and what was the boys name given as… your joking right?)
Sodom was no laughing matter.
Apparently, there were less than 10 found righteous in Sodom. boom! (don’t look back)
My point in this rambling is that I believe God judges us individually for our personal relationships and the way we live, but He also judges us as a nation when we make national policy that is ultimately dangerous for us as a society, and clearly violates His law given to us for our protection. Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill the Law, which is intended for us to Love God and Love others. Its ironic that this issue gains national attention from Philidelphia, the city of brotherly love. (lately, this “brotherly” seems quite perverted from its original casting)
Thanks for your post James. I read the Soddom story a bit differently. When God talks about why he is going to destroy the cities, he mentions many since, but he does not mention homosexuality as one of them specifically. The issue of homosexuality does not come up until the angels come and the mob outside of the house threatens to gang rape the visitors. It seems odd to me that you would mention the citizens of these two cities as being homosexual when really that isn’t mentioned until an attempted rape at the end of the story.
And really, James, the *entire* population of these cities are homosexual? Puleease!
TA > “he mentions many since (sins?), but he does not mention homosexuality as one of them specifically.”
Well, let’s take a look at the book to see if you are correct:
“Genesis13: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.”
(TA: True does not mention homosexuality specifically in this context, neither does it mention any other sins specifically… just “wicked and sinning against the Lord” as if that were not enough…but keep reading)
In 19:4…it says “all the men from every part of the city of Sodom came and said, bring the visitors (the three men in Lot’s house) out so we can have sex with them”.
I draw this conclusion: all the men of the city were homosexual or at least wanted to be in on whatever they were going to do to these visitors.
SharonB> “Puleease!”
I just copied this from the NIV Bible at biblegateway.com:
Genesis 19:4 “Before they (Lot and the Three visitors) had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
Also note their aggressiveness and their attitude toward Lot:
Genesis 19:9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. And they said, “This fellow (Lot) came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge!
We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.”
Well, even though Lot was simply motivated to protect these visitors (who according to the account were angels), the men of the city ridiculed him because he was ‘acting as their judge’. (And Lot would not be such a righteous man either…he offered them his virgin daughters!
Conclusion: if you live among the wicked your judgement becomes tainted as
well)
‘Acting as our judge’: Where have I heard that kind of rhetoric recently,
that mob mentality?
I listened to the video of the incident in Phili: the crowd, gay-pride types were jeering as the police led the Christians who were singing “the Name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run into it and they are saved” into the paddy wagon to go to jail.
Phili may yet be just a little more civil than Sodom, but give it a few more years without any balance. Where are the righteous, how many are
there: 50, 45, 40, 30, 20, 10…boom. God may have to intervene. He is tolerant…to a point.
I see that you removed my post at 12:00AM?
I was not being disruptive. Or were you just offended by me quoting the Bible? I see that is what you and all these others would like to suppress.
I was polite and simply answering TA and SharonB. Nothing I said in my post was slamming them or anyone else here, nor was I defending Repent America’s position.
My post at 1200AM was in fact relevant and to the point. I correlated the behavior in the Bible acct of S&G to the Phili incident which was the topic of discussion.
Request that you kindly repost my reply to TA and SharonB…then I will be done.
James Cook
James,
You have made clear your disrespect for Christians who disagree with you; for the daughters of Lot; and for constitutional freedoms. You deliberately confuse S&G rapists with gay people. You defend Repent America’s attempt to deny free speech to the Outfest attendees in Philadelphia. You even scapegoat gay people for Lot’s sexual abuse of his daughters.
A sincere Biblical analysis would have found that the inhospitable and threatening behavior behavior condemned in the fabled Sodom and Gomorrah resembles Repent America’s own behavior. The group bullies, harasses, and shouts down innocent spectators and speakers at public events for the purpose of denying them their freedom of speech and expression.
Ex-Gay Watch is a site where specific exgay and antigay activists are monitored for potentially unethical or immoral behavior.
It is not an appropriate venue for individuals to 1) broadly prejudge and scapegoat large categories of people, 2) broadcast a one-sided contempt for the constitutional rights of others, nor 3) threaten readers with doomsday unless they buy into one’s own personal insecurity and prejudice.
Also, to repeat my point, the *entire* population of S&G being homosexual begs incredulity. If they were homosexual, there would have been no cities of S&G within a generation, anyways. Think about it. The men of S&G were clearly rapists, and beyond that their true *orientation* can not be garnered.
This is one of the most obvious and egregious cases of RR mis-interpreting the Bible. It defies common sense to state that an entire population of a city was gay. To further compound the error as a per se condemnation of homosexuality is to seriously twist scripture.
The clear meaning of this scripture is that these men of S&G were inhospitable to the extreme – using sex (rape) as a form of control, intimidation, and way of humiliating guests and foreigners. Their behavior would more properly have been interpreted as a hate crime intended to cause the death of these visitors and “send a message” to all who were not inhabitants of the city or possible spies.
To equate the attempted forcible rape and evil will of the men of S&G with an Outfest event in Philly is seriously imbalanced. I won’t go as far as Mike as to impugn Marcavage’s RA group with this mentality either.
However, if your comment, James, is to be taken as almost wishing or calling upon God to rain down fire on Philadelphia, then I humbly suggest you have much to learn about what being a follower of the Christ is all about.
I saw Marcavage and his attorney on tv and the prosecutor was interviewd as well.
They did a dance around the issue and Jason, what you’re not getting is:
provocation and harassment are NOT protected speech.
If someone cannot restrain themselves from confronting people and provoking an emotionally charged situation, then the law had to step in.
This is not about a difference of life choices.
Marcavage’s particular speech has connection to incidents that have led to DEATH for those he is demonizing.
A flow line from speech to harm has to be contained.
If the father of a young gay bashing victim decided to break his nose, then Maravage could have avoided it by minding his own business.
I witnessed a racist woman beat her own three year old girl for being NICE to me!
I was too stunned at such violence that I was flat footed and did nothing.
But if I’d run after that woman and confronted her-then I would have been the one arrested.
I have been traumatized by just being there and seeing it ever since.
Imagine if you’re a freshly out young person and someone is all over you like Marcavage-it’s psychologically damaging to have to look over your shoulder for real violence after you leavea block party like that.
Had the Klan showed up at a Juneteenth block party (celebration of the Emancipation) and one of those white hoods had gotten into a fight-who was right.
The black folks for celebrating, or the gate crashers for bringing their hateful rhetoric to people who DON’T WANT TO HEAR IT!?
Matcavage had no right to be a pain in the ass.
“A flow line from speech to harm has to be contained.”
On its own, this would be a very strange method for determining when free speech should be allowed. Imagine the charts we could do up. I’m sure there are a few desperate young people in the world who ended up committing suicide because of confusion over pro-gay speeches, who might not have done if they only heard one side…
Nathan- about the gay kids committing suicide from pro-gay speeches, I am not so sure. I don’t see how that would come to pass. There are plenty of documented speeches of people committing suicide as a result of negativity from anti-gay people, even many Christians, unfortunately. I think i would be more concerned with that.
TA,
I agree there is probably a difference in scale, but my point was that, because of the later actions of emotionally suicidial people and how they MIGHT respond, is that a valid enough reason by itself to limit free speech?
marcavage MUST go to jail; What he did was wrong and he should serve time for – in my opinion 47 years isn’t enough. According to god just simply being gay isn’t enough to send anyone to hell. What he does NOT understand is that homosexuality isn’t a choice it is a gene. People are born gay. Homosexuals don’t wake up one day and decide they are going to be gay. This man needs to realize that. Michael Marcavage is simply a closeted member of the KKK and that’s obvious to any American who has an idea of homosexuality.
Ok, Nathan, I see the point. I would agree, free speech shouldn’t be curtailed. I do think there should be some sort of regulations for change therapy though.
Diet programs are required to say things like “results not typical” when advertising their products. But, many ex-gay groups and therapists claim, without any proof, that change is completely possible for everyone. Its a dangerous thing to say. Free speech is certainly a right I wouldnt want to curttail, but I would hope some sort of honesty would be involved, required here.
If a certain group thinks that trampleing on the freedom of speech will win it friends, they are mistaken. You are only giving freedom loving people reasons to hate you and bring you down. Do you think by taking away the freedom of others, you are protecting yours? Mike today, you tommorow!
If the gay community will not respect the rights of others, their rights will also not be respected.
Crooked DA’s and outrageous false charges will not win you friends. Corruption is not a strength.
Previously, I have never dicriminated against gays in my life. This will now change. If you folks had any principles, you would demonstate on behalf of this Mike guys rights, and get him out of jail. That you do not, makes you my, and every freedom lovers, enemy.
Xiaoding.
ps: get ready to open your wallets, you are soon to realize the true meaning of “civil rights suit”.
I don’t think anyone who reads Xiaoding’s post believes this person has any clue as to the case at all, nor does this person give a rip about any gay person.
Xiaoding, to you I say, give it a rest. MacArvage has a very long history of disruption and disrespect for the law and for other groups.
Our legal system allows for harsher punishment for repeat offenders and if you knew anything about him, or the real reason he’s in hot water you’d know he’s quite a handful.
Your shameful threat of starting to discriminate against a group of people because you view them as a threat to your freedom of speech is childlike and pathetic, and in my opinion fake. You’d find some reason to “discriminate” against the evil gays with or without Michael Macarvage.
Please don’t think anyone here is dumb enough to buy your line of bull.