Never one to be deterred by the facts, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) goes up against the mother of a transgender child. Glenn Stanton of Focus on the Family joins him in what seems like a defense of the theories essential to their respective group’s claims that homosexuality is a disorder and can be treated. In this case, Nicolosi staunchly informs the mother that she was overly involved in her child’s life, while the child’s father was not involved enough. Further, there is a 75% chance that her child will be gay, as well as transgender.
NARTH is no stranger to controversy. As first reported on XGW in 2006, NARTH advisor Gerald Schoenewolf, Ph.D., attempted a justification of slavery.
With all due respect, there is another way, or other ways, to look at the race issue in America. It could be pointed out, for example, that Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle, as yet uncivilized or industrialized. Life there was savage, as savage as the jungle for most people, and that it was the Africans themselves who first enslaved their own people. They sold their own people to other countries, and those brought to Europe, South America, America, and other countries, were in many ways better off than they had been in Africa. But if one even begins to say these things one is quickly shouted down as though one were a complete madman.
That same year, another NARTH advisor, Joseph Berger, made an incredibly cruel suggestion to the parents of transgender children.
NARTH Scientific Advisory Committee member Joseph Berger said on a blog in reaction to a San Francisco Chronicle article on gender identity issues, “I suggest, indeed, letting children who wish go to school in clothes of the opposite sex – but not counselling other children to not tease them or hurt their feelings.
“On the contrary, don’t interfere, and let the other children ridicule the child who has lost that clear boundary between play-acting at home and the reality needs of the outside world.
“Maybe, in this way, the child will re-establish that necessary boundary.”
While the offending material was quietly removed from the organization’s web site, both Schoenewolf and Berger remain with NARTH.
The ex-gay referral ministry Exodus International recommends NARTH as a resource and Nicolosi represents Exodus as a speaker.
H/T: Warren Throckmorton
One of my Dad’s closest friends is the parent of a transgender child. He lives a couple blocks from Dad’s house. They adopted him (as a boy) from China. He was 8 years old I think. But he expressed himself as adamantly being a girl, despite his outer gender. His parents were a bit confused at first, but that was because they weren’t sure if his behavior was a result of the adoption and any other circumstances that might be considered traumatic. After exploring further, it was determined that their son was transgender and strongly wished to transition to being a girl.
Today she is fully transitioned, with a new name and a new outer identity to correspond with the inner. physically, she is male – hormones and surgery will be discussed years to come – but everything else about her is female. The parents, who are very liberal (almost on the side of “granola,”) absolutely unconditionally love and accept their daughter for who she is. As for the children at her Elementary School, well they are, in a word, “awesome.” They are very non-judgmental and so far this girl hasn’t had any trouble with peers. This is because the school’s counselor had a meeting at the school to speak to the children about this “condition” and what happens. Offended parents were free to keep their children from attending the meeting, but these were few in number. I’m told that the transgender condition and gender identity were discussed in frank but simple and non-gory terms.
It reminds me of a sort of similar case in my brother’s graduating class. When he was in middle school, there was a paraplegic, slightly mentally retarded boy in his grade. But he had a lot of friends and nobody disliked him or ever made fun of him for his condition or anything. And people who did, those people were ostracized as all-around jerks. He still had a core cadre of friends and allies. For people who are “different,” when you start out young, understandings can be built and communities can envelop those “different” kids and help them have a childhood like any other.
LOVE the mom in this clip. She is tremendously composed and confident in confronting the pomposity of Dr. Nicolosi. Once again, Nicolosi demonstrates that this is all about theories that support a narrow worldview instead of actual, living people – in this case a real transgender child and a mom and dad. Nicolosi’s theories just don’t apply, regardless of his insistence.
I love this mother, and I love the stories you tell, Emily. They give me such hope.
The Schoenewolf and Berger quotes make my throwing hand all itchy, though.
I’m concerned as to why “Dr. Phil” had Nicolosi and Berger on the show, especially when it appeared (at least from the clip above) that he presented them as ‘experts’ on equal footing with the mainstream therapists who were sitting on the mother’s side.
While the mother could obviously see through the BS, “Dr. Phil” either could not (due to his own biases), or didn’t care (because a debate caused by false equivalency of the two “sides” generates better TV ratings and studio audience reactions). I’m concerned by this because “Dr. Phil” failed to control the message of his own show and instead allowed the “theories” of NARTH dominate for those few minutes (to the point of practically plugging Nicolosi’s book) without asking the basic questions that were obvious to the mother.
I was looking for an interview I heard some time ago on BBC Radio 4 (possibly on Woman’s Hour, a programme I don’t often listen to), where the presenter was interviewing a woman with a transgender MtoF child. The transition was made when the child was an early teen.
The mother said that when she remembered her child’s childhood, she remembered her as a daughter, even though she’d been male at the time. She was extremely supportive, more so than this mother, who fought against it. (On the other hand, the woman I heard on the radio discovered this later in her child’s life, and was perhaps therefore more prepared to accept it.)
She also said that the school had been very supportive. The headmaster had suggested that the child should live out the remainder of the term as a boy, make the transition over the holidays, and come back as a girl. And this was what they did.
Transgenderism is certainly something I don’t understand, but it’s nonetheless real.
The BBC keeps fairly good archives usually, but I couldn’t find it. I did find another short article on transgender issues: Home Truths: My Dad, Ermina.
TRiG.
I was also similarly shocked that Dr. Phil had these dangerous clowns on the program. I expected more from him.
Ugh, “…this over involved relationship with the mother.”
No surprise that in a church world that believes women need to be submission to men that we continue to hear these “theories” that when mom gets too strong, it messes up the order of things. This is not about science. It is not about the Bible it is about misogyny and insisting on patriarchy.
This child knew who she was. She was not confused about her gender. Once her mom understood that, she affirmed her child. Nicolosi on the other hand calls for an attack against all things feminine in the child.
Good on this mother for calling Nicolosi out!
Peterson, I’d like to take your “patriarchy” comment further by saying that anti-gay attitudes as a whole are a result of overall misogyny and a desire for male dominance. Female-female acts in our culture do not carry the “gross out” factor that male-male acts do. In the Torah, female-female acts are NOT forbidden, which you know. But male-male acts are. It’s about the man being “dominant” and not being “passive” and “feminine.” It is assumed that in male gay sexual relations one must always assume a passive or “womanly” role. Without getting into gory details I can assure people this is not the case. But even the prohibition against a*** sex stems from a fear of a man assuming the “woman’s role.” And nearly every anti-gay argument I hear or read comes from an aversion to male homosexuality. Very rarely are specific examples mentioned for the other sex.
I love the mother in this video.
Glenn Stanton is a fraud. He has no social science credentials (and not even a Ph.D.) but Dobson hired him to be Focus’ social science public policy expert.
Nicolosi isn’t that hard to show as the ass he is. He probably figured that this situation would be easy, or the mother too impressed by him to talk back the way she did.
Yes, GOOD for her.
She said she treated the situation as a death of a son, and had a mourning period.
But I wish parents (although I don’t want to minimize their feelings), wouldn’t see this situation as SO terrible!
As a tragedy or situation in which they assume the child ISN’T happy being gay or transgender.
See what I mean by education being a way to peace between parents and their gay and transgender children.
They are STILL alive, they are healthy and can be MORESO, not less!
To agree with Emily K (hey sister/friend!), perhaps when sons transition to the female gender, a mother can relate AS knowing it’s harder to be a woman because of the assumptions made against women.
And a father can believe this also as a male who sees his son as an INFERIOR male.
Nicolosi and Stanton are NOT experts, they simply validate the FEAR that people have and exploit ignorance.
And this mother was right, Nicolosi’s THEORY, which isn’t even a GOOD or viable one…does SUCK!
I was rather disappointed that Dr. Phil had these people on his show. They are not qualified to diagnose this. They view this with a very biased lense.
BTW (I am in no way related to Dr. Phil!)
Hi, Regan. 8)
I don’t pretend to know why someone such as this child wanted to be the other sex. But that he did so at such an extremely early age should make even the Nicolosis of the world just shut the heck up.
The worse part about these snake-oil salesmen is what happens after they ride out of town. Forty years from now, when the repression cannot be maintained any longer this doctor’s “successes” will fall apart and still need to transition. And families will be torn apart, families built on the failed assumptions of this doctor’s fanciful ideas backed by nothing other than what some parents wanted to hear decades earlier. But by then he will be either retired or dead and so has nothing to lose. As for the show, I applaud the mom that called Nicolosi on his lies. Dr Phil on the other hand is as guilty as the doctor of harming innocent children.
I don’t pretend to know why someone such as this child wanted to be the other sex.
Here’s an overview of some of the neurological issues involved:
https://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html
There have been other studies out of Europe and Australia pointing in the same cross-gender-wired-brain direction. Unfortunately, a lot of the research in North America is dominated by the likes of Zucker and Blanchard out of Toronto’s Clarke Institute, and they’ve said flat out they simply aren’t interested in doing research comparing trans women with cisgendered women (or trans men with cisgendered men).
Boo, thanks for the link. There was some great information there. But I am still no expert. And, neither is Dr. Nicolosi. Dr. Phil needs to get some real experts on the subject to appear on his show.
First, this is “Dr. Phil”, not a real doctor. This show was not to educate people about Gender Identity Disorder or the challenges that families of transgendered children face. This was a freak show, and the NARTH brigade was brought in to throw eggs at the freaks.
Nicolosi is a dangerous man with dangerous ideas. The long-term consequences of his “treatment” are not yet known, and I think that we can all expect that the psychological damage done to his “patients” (victims, really) will be difficult to treat and overcome.
NARTH is a thoroughly-discredited organization. The inclusion of Nicolosi and other professional anti-gay activists is just more evidence of the real motive of this episode of “Dr. Phil” – i.e., freak shows sell advertising.
Yes, I think the danger of a show like “Dr. Phil” is, people trust that he is a real doctor. I have heard so many times “I saw it on Dr. Phil”. So the naive culture we live in (especially the evangelical church culture) trusts that people like Doctors/Ministers.. etc are out to present “real truth”. Not taking into consideration the business of the church, talk show world.
What a tremendous amount of heartache that mother and her child have gone through. I have a colleague at work who has made the complete transformation from woman to man. It was a very difficult and painful thing for him to go through, but I do think there is a significant difference when one is an adult as opposed to a child of 11. My colleague had lived with questions from a very early age but viewed the transformation to live as a man as a decision to be made after very serious consideration and in depth psychiatric consultation. I still remember the letter we received at work where the surgeons doing the transformation required her to live as a man for a full year before doing the surgery. She, at the time, made this choice and throughout it all was able to discuss the process with her doctors and psychologists before embarking on such a momentous and profoundly life altering decision.
I’m surprised that so far all of these comments are in support of the mother. This boy is just a child! He hasn’t even reached adolescence. If we all think back on our lives, none of us knew who the heck we were back then, or could have had sufficient knowledge about ourselves to even understand the ramifications of changing one’s gender. Just because a boy likes princesses and pink costumes does not make one a girl, and a mother who truly understands the responsibility of parenting will realize that there is wisdom in allowing her child to grow into adulthood before making such a profound decision.
And let’s have some common sense: just because a boy wants to live as a girl, (at age 11!), doesn’t mean that a mother should acquiesce. Perhaps this boy would eventually decide to become a woman, after growing through adolescence into manhood, but it seems incredibly shortsighted, and indeed unloving, to actually encourage a child at such an early age to make this decision. In the case of my colleague, changing genders was the last option, and ultimately it became for her the only option, but she entered into this after years of soul searching. What soul searching can an 11 year old boy do, at all? Some have said here that, “he simply knows.” Hogwash. Nobody knows anything at age 11! It’s a time of confusion for straight, gay, bi, transgendered, and indeed, there are many times where experimentation takes place as boys and girls attempt to navigate these difficult waters. Adolescence is the most important time of self-discovery on the path to adulthood, and he hasn’t even reached it. Who knows what the next few years would have brought him? But now, it is actually the boy’s mother who has chosen for him by encouraging his wishes.
All I think about when I see that clip from Dr. Phil is the boy. So far it seems that the comments in this thread are merely elated that someone told Nicolosi that his views suck, and how impressed they are with this woman, and we’re forgetting about the boy. I’m not in the Nicolosi camp, but I’m certainly not in this woman’s camp either. I view her acquiescing at such a young age to her son’s prepubescent request to live as a girl as incredibly irresponsible. Let the boy grow into adulthood, when he will have the intellect and maturity to actually grapple with the issue. All one would need to do is to talk with a child development specialist to know that the brain’s development at age 11 is still far from being able to grasp the ramifications of a decision such as changing genders!
Parents are called to nurture their children and to be their guardians until they are adults. This boy is her responsibility and those who might applaud her for encouraging him in taking this step fail to see the reality of the situation: he’s too young, in his psychological development to have the capacity to make this decision in an informed manner. He’s a child, and until the point where he fully knows what the decision to live life as a woman would entail, she should continue to at least acknowledge that there is value in urging him to embrace the biological reality that he is a boy. When he is an adult, he can make the decision, and choose as an adult, just as my colleague at work did, but until that time, he is her responsibility, and I find her decision abhorrent.
Dan, I wouldn’t brush off the mind of a child so quickly.
Talking to my neighbor, he said their daughter was so adamant. “I’m a girl.” there was no questioning, no confusion about anything.
I will agree that in terms of sexuality there is confusion, but I was always under the reasoning that sexual identity and sexual orientation were two very different things. And if, after several years of living as the other sex, there is no confusion, and all the shrinks have analyzed, and all the doctors have diagnosed, what is there left to do?
I always felt, growing up as a kid and still today in adulthood, that I am both male and female on the inside. But I was never in doubt that I was a girl and am today a woman. But I still feel like inside, I embody them both. As a kid, this provided a bit of confusion that I felt somewhat male – i met very few like me – But I was never in doubt that I was, physically, and psychologically, still a member of the female sex. I just wasn’t a “girly” girl. If there were 6 different genders, I’d probably be #4 or something. But if you had asked me, I would always say “i’m a girl.” I just wanted to hang around the boys. I was sure. And nobody could convince me to feel otherwise.
What soul searching can an 11 year old boy do, at all? Some have said here that, “he simply knows.” Hogwash. Nobody knows anything at age 11!
And your basis for this conclusion is…? I mean, other than just a vague feeling that it’s “wrong,” which is more or less what drives the likes of Nicolosi as well.
In a case like this, there’s no “soul searching” involved. This kid has been spontaneously acting like and proclaming herself to be a girl from the time she was able to walk and talk. Many of us are able to repress, with varying degrees of success, our feelings once we understand the negative consequences of expressing them, but many others just can’t.
This isn’t about “experimentation.” It’s just who the child is. Delaying into adulthood serves no purpose except to make hormones less effective and integration into society as a woman more difficult, and can lead to depression and suicide.
That said, nothing permanent is being done to this child at this time. The most she could get at this age would be hormone blockers to delay puberty, which have no permanent effects if stopped. If she did for some reason (literally) change her mind, all they do is get her some boy clothes and a haircut and voila- boy.
Boo’s right, my neighbor said that any surgery and serious hormone therapy would come when she’s grown but before she is 20, which means she could wait until she is 18 or 19 to decide. Legal adult age, if I’m not mistaken. She could spend a year in college and “soul-search” there. Right now, the only real concrete plan is to chemically delay puberty; which isn’t going to happen for a few years yet.
I love how Nicolosi looked pissed. He seems to have serious anger issues when confronted.
On the other hand, I’m sure the mother must have felt quite foolish once Nicolosi informed her she could have avoided the whole thing just by dropping her child on her head as a baby.
Boo,
My comment about an 11 year old’s ability to grapple with such a life altering issue has nothing to do with my “vague notion that I think it’s wrong.” The neurological development and psychological development of an 11 year old is such that there are definite limitations placed on their ability to make decisions such as this, that are fully informed. All you need to do is research literature on child development, from mainstream sources. Case in point: the brains of adolescent boys are not fully developed in the area of understanding risks and consequences, which results in adolescent boys taking crazy risks. This has nothing to do with “vauge feelings,” but has everything to do with scientific fact. I suggest “Real Boys” by William Pollack, a book I own and that has been insightful to me about child psychology and gave me insights into my own homosexual desires.
I contend that an 11 year old doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to make an informed decision about transgender issues. When is the last time you talked to an 11 year old? They are children with limited capacity for understanding complex issues. This is why they need to be nurtured and guided by parents and schools. I also believe that parents should encourage their children to embrace their biological gender before acquiescing to the requests of the child to live as the opposite gender. I think that’s extremely bad parenting to do otherwise, and in this video, I find the mother to be the most reprehensible character on that stage. Thank God she wasn’t my mother!
And finally, Boo, did I ever say that I viewed it as wrong to undergo a sex change operation? I have a colleague who went through the surgery and I treat him as a man and respect his right to make that decision and am saddened by the immense pain that he has gone through in his life. I’m only attempting to dialog on the issue of whether or not this mother’s choice was truly in the best interest of her son or not. Let the boy grow up, for crying out loud, as a boy, first. It seems to me that this mother, when confronted with her son’s requests for princesses as toys gave the boy exactly everything he asked for. His room is a stereotypical girl’s room. What would have happened if she had not agreed to his requests? It seems strange to me that a mother who wonders about her son and his interests in “girl things” continues to encourage that by only purchasing “girl things” for him. Parents have absolute authority over what enters their home. As far as I’m concerned, she should have pulled the plug on the princesses long ago.
I contend that an 11 year old doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to make an informed decision about transgender issues.
I contend that, unfortunately, you really have very little idea what you’re talking about. You’re complicating something that actually isn’t complicated. The child is, mentally/psychologically, female. That’s really all there is to it. The only question then becomes, do the people around her decide to make her life harder or easier?
I also believe that parents should encourage their children to embrace their biological gender before acquiescing to the requests of the child to live as the opposite gender.
What do you think, these parents just start treating their kids as the opposite sex from the time they’re born? They DO try. It doesn’t work. That’s the whole point. After a time, the more enlightened ones realize there’s no point in needlessly prolonging suffering.
You know all the runaway transkids out prostituting themselves on the street? They’re not there because they like it, despite what J. Michael Bailey would have you believe. They’re out there because their parents did what you want them to do.
Thank God she wasn’t my mother!
Then you should also be thanking God you weren’t born trans.
I have a colleague who went through the surgery and I treat him as a man and respect his right to make that decision and am saddened by the immense pain that he has gone through in his life.
And yet you wish to see it prolonged.
Let the boy grow up, for crying out loud, as a boy, first.
She’s not a boy. That’s the whole point. No matter what the mother does, she won’t be a boy. The only choices are making her grow up as a miserable, depressed, potentially suicidal girl, or a happy girl.
What would have happened if she had not agreed to his requests?
See above: misery, depression, very high chance of suicide. But at least you’d be more comfortable, and that’s the important thing in all this, ‘init?
As far as I’m concerned, she should have pulled the plug on the princesses long ago.
And it doesn’t make you pause in the least to consider that this puts you in the exact same camp as Nicolosi? How about we extend your reasoning to, say, you? You’re not allowed to have sex with guys until you spend at least 10 years having sex with women. Plus you need to at least try marriage to a woman first. I mean, it’s not like that’s going to cause anybody any kind of harm, right?
All you need to do is research literature on child development, from mainstream sources.
And how much of what you’re referring to touches on trans issues? Let me guess: none of it. All the outcome literature suggests these kids do great. Meanwhile, the ones who get the “treatment” you recommend end up depressed and having anxiety attacks whenever they see the color pink. (I’m not exagerating, that’s from an actual case)
Meanwhile, the ones who get the “treatment” you recommend end up depressed and having anxiety attacks whenever they see the color pink.
There’s more than one case of that, though I only know one that’s been covered in the media. It seems to be a pretty common side effect of the ex-trans therapy, because it’s something they focus on deliberately.
Pink doesn’t quite make me have panic attacks anymore, but it’s still a bit of a shock when I see it, sort of like a slap in the face.
As far as I’m concerned, she should have pulled the plug on the princesses long ago.
I was a fairly happy content eight year old, but then it was decided I was too effeminate and that I might grow up to be gay. So, they did this. They pulled the plug on it.
Dan, how many people do you know who tried to kill themselves at eight years old? That was the side effect of the kind of treatment and therapy you are stating. I tried again at 12, 15 and 16. Thankfully I seem to suck at it, but I was pretty good at self mutilation. I have scars ‘down there’ because no one really listened or knew what was going on.
I was told that pink and girl things were ‘bad’. I became a troublesome child, I refused to socialize with anyone, withdrew into myself and became a complete recluse. I had no friends, no interests. I just sat around and fantasized alone in my room with the door shut, make believing particular toys that were ‘ok’ were other things.
So far out of that original batch of children I was in therapy with that I keep in contact with, about half are dead from suicide, maybe more, some just completely vanished.
I have to say in this little debate between Dan from Michigan and Boo.. I’m in the middle of the road. I agree that there are certain aspects of both your arguements.
I think yes, there are certain decisions that 11 year orlds cannot make in a full understanding of something.
But I also agree that when a parent tries to teach a child to be something, and the child just is not that, then they need to accept and support that child 100%.
It is such a complex topic isn’t it.
“insights into your own homosexual desires?” What kind of insight do you need? Why is attraction to other people of the same gender (and similar age) such a complicated issue in people’s minds, when it comes so naturally in such an uncomplicated way?
Boo,
You’re operating under the very untenable position that every child who has interests in toys typically associated with the opposite gender, and says that he/she wants to be the opposite gender is indeed truly the opposite gender, trapped in the wrong body. That’s a specious assumption your are making that is far too broad to have traction. The stories of people all over the world are filled with what might be viewed as “gender confusion” at an early age, where a boy plays with dolls or a girl plays with guns. To suggest that every man or woman throughout history who has preferred playing with toys associated with the opposite gender, or even perhaps questioned why they were a boy or a girl, is then therefore actually the opposite gender is ridiculous, and patently false. Some indeed have grown out of that phase, and it was just a phase, and then there are others who don’t, like my colleague at work. You have stated that the child IS mentally/psychologically a girl, and you’ve determined this by watching a five minute segment from the Dr. Phil show.
Granted, I have seen only five minutes as well, but it caused me to question the wisdom of making that decision at such an early age. My comments stem from a belief that not all boys and girls who exhibit interests that are not stereotypical of their gender are automatically transgendered, and indeed, it is wisest to assume that they are not. Do you actually believe that every boy or girl who has played with toys of the opposite gender, and has expressed a desire to be the opposite gender is de facto, indeed, the opposite gender?
Do you actually believe that every boy or girl who has played with toys of the opposite gender, and has expressed a desire to be the opposite gender is de facto, indeed, the opposite gender?
This is where you are woefully misinformed. There is much more to diagnosing a GID patient than to simply observe the play habits of the child. It has to persist for an incredibly long time. Often with threats or actual events of self mutilation and attempts of bodily harm. There is a rigorous screening process that is not seen on any of these programs or articles that cover this situation.
I know that in the case of my neighbor, it was not “i want to be a girl.” it was, “I am a girl.”
Do you actually believe that every boy or girl who has played with toys of the opposite gender, and has expressed a desire to be the opposite gender is de facto, indeed, the opposite gender?
You need to actually educate yourself on this topic. These kids aren’t simply playing with dolls and sometimes saying they want to be girls. They’re spontaneously and totally acting female from the time they’re able to act at all. These kinds of cases are WAAAYYY beyond “gender confusion.”
No one is “making” her be a girl. Her mother is allowing her to express herself, and that self is a girl. In the off chance she ever does “grow out of it,” then so what? Do you think if she went to her mom tomorrow and said, “You know what? The girl thing just isn’t quite working. I want to try being a boy again” then her mom’s going to be like, “NO!!! A girl you are, and a girl you shall be! Forever! Mwahahahahaha!!!”
And you didn’t answer my question. Are you willing to hold yourself to the same standard you demand for transkids, and subject yourself to mandatory several years of sex with women only before being with a guy again?
Yeah, didn’t think so.
Why do you care if she’s a girl anyway? Or is this just more gay male superiority complex and trans is A Bad Thing?
I think yes, there are certain decisions that 11 year orlds cannot make in a full understanding of something.
The only decision is being allowed to wear dresses and be called by a girl’s name and such. Hormone blockers can delay puberty, but have no permanent effects. Cross-sex hormones come at the earliest in mid teens, surgery the earliest at 18.
Oh, and according to Wayne Besen’s blog, this child already tried to commit suicide once as the result of her parents trying to force male gender roles on her. If Dan in Michigan wants to maintain his position after that, then my response wouldn’t be printable on this blog.
https://www.waynebesen.com/2009/01/dr-phils-poison-pill.html
Boo
My desire here is to raise questions, to stimulate thinking about a very painful and difficult subject, and to debate the wisdom of what this mother did. Is it possible to discuss and debate an issue without resorting to ad hominem comments, such as, “I contend that, unfortunately, you really have very little idea what you’re talking about.”
You have no idea what I know or don’t know about the subject of transgendered individuals. When my friend and colleague went through a sex change operation, you better believe I, and the rest of my colleagues learned a lot. I read about the issue and tried to become as informed as I possibly could. I still submit that in the scope of human existence, whether or not one is truly transgendered is a difficult thing to ascertain at age 11. All one needs to ask is this: have there been any individuals who have questioned their gender, and upon looking back on their life, have indeed seen that it was a phase that they went through? The answer to that is certainly yes. Transgendered individuals are a minuscule portion of the population, which is a statistical fact, which means that truly transgendered individuals are a statistical aberration. This is simply pure statistics. That being said, it is very possible that some boys and girls who question their gender eventually end up choosing to embrace their biological gender as their true gender, while some indeed will choose to embrace the opposite gender. This is the basis upon which I still contend that it is a questionable proposition to always acquiesce to a child’s wishes in this regard.
We are complex creatures, and no one has the answers about why a certain boy or girl will psychologically choose to embrace a gender opposite of their own. Our psyches are far too complex for that kind of understanding as of yet.
My point is this, and it is very sound: some boys and girls who think they are the opposite gender will transition into embracing their own biological gender, without therapy, and through the natural process of growing up. Some won’t. If there is only one individual who has ever changed from believing he was a girl, and then embraced being a boy, then it gives credence to the point I was making above: it cannot be a de facto assumption that every and boy and girl who says they desire to be the opposite gender remains as such. Given that fact, it seems wise and prudent to err on the side of encouraging the child to embrace the biological reality of their gender through nurture. Nurture and nature both have a place in our development, and there are none of us who have not found our psyches and personality shaped by both. In this respect, I do believe it is possible, to a certain extent to “masculinize” or “feminize” through nurturing.
Now, it seems that in many cases these attempts have been done by brute force, by manipulation, in ways that are without question abusive. My great uncle, who has now passed away, was born left handed. My great grandfather forced him to walk around with a rope tied around his left hand, attached to a sack with stones. It forced my great uncle to use his right hand, and eventually he became ambidextrous, but at a great psychological cost to himself. That was abusive, and in exponentially greater ways, I’m convinced that forcing “masculinity” on a boy who thinks of himself as a girl, in some redneck, blue collar, gun-toting manner is also abusive. (Please don’t think that I’m here attempting to equate being transgendered with being left handed–every analogy breaks down at some point–I only use it as an example of an abusive forced change imposed on a member of my own family, in a very minor aspect of his life as compared to those who consider themselves transgendered).
When a parent is confronted with an issue such this, there is a bell curve with two extremes: attempt to force the boy into becoming manly, by forcing him to be on the football team, by forcing him to get greasy and work on a car, etc., or they can acquiesce completely and say, “you’re really a girl, and now I’m going to call you Karen instead of Carl, even though you’re only 11.”
I believe there is a middle path, a path that can be tread with love, prudence and sober reflection that would aim to encourage the boy to embrace his biological gender. This path does not reflect a lack of love.
Boo, you said this:
The only question then becomes, do the people around her decide to make her life harder or easier?
I’m convinced of this: the middle ground that I have laid out reflects an attempt to make this child’s life easier. If a boy can learn to embrace his identity as a boy, his life will be infinitely more easy than if he eventually undergoes a surgery to change his gender. If there is anyway to help him along that path, I believe the attempt should be made.
As to some of your other comments, Boo, they’re really just ad hominem attacks that probably are fun to write in ways where you feel satisfied that you’re zinging me, such as, “But at least you’d be more comfortable, and that’s the important thing in all this, ‘init?”
Come on man, engage in a debate without resorting to stuff like that. You asked why I care if he thinks he’s a girl or not. Well, I have genuine concern for the boy and other boys and girls like him.
And to answer your question:
And you didn’t answer my question. Are you willing to hold yourself to the same standard you demand for transkids, and subject yourself to mandatory several years of sex with women only before being with a guy again?
Yeah, didn’t think so.
You have no knowledge about me whatsoever, or what I believe about much of anything, other than the few paragraphs I’ve written on this subject. “Yeah, didn’t think so.” is another example of what you must have felt was a zinger.
Dissecting your question to me, I see this:
You have an assumption that I would propose that “transkids” can be “fixed” by having sex with members of the opposite gender. That’s absurd, and nowhere did I suggest that. As to me, and my personal view on sex, you have no idea what I believe, because I haven’t told you. I’ve reached the point where my personal conviction is that I won’t, and can’t have sex unless I’m married to a woman. Though I’ve had sex with both men and women, I’ve reached the point where my convictions are such that I don’t believe that God condones any sort of sexual encounter outside the confines of marriage, so that leaves sex out of the picture unless I decide I want to be with a woman. I happen to believe that sex outside of marriage is damaging to every single person who engages in it, so please don’t make assumptions about things that you can’t possibly know, because I haven’t alluded to them. You seem to have pegged me as some guy who’s only concerned with “male superiority.”
There’s actually not much you can know about me through one thread of comments, so why not just stick to the debate without resorting to things such as this that don’t further the debate at all?
I think it’s a worthwhile subject to debate, and the segment on Dr. Phil’s show stimulated my thinking. I’m beginning to wonder, however, if the only position that’s acceptable to have on this forum is one that says that every child who says he or she wants to be the opposite gender should be instantly encouraged to embrace being their biological opposite. I just don’t see how that’s a tenable position to hold, given the complexity of the entire scope of human existence and experience.
Dan In Michigan,
By keeping up with male pronouns every time you call on that child “boy”, and then proceeded in calling out to Boo “Come on man”, is not going to win you any real friends from the transsexual community. I appreciate your opinion and thoughts on this issue, but if you feel the need to tacitly invalidate my childhood struggles and experiences to bad “tenable positions to hold”, then this is where I have to part ways with you.
It is fine that you wish to think over the issue, but you are certainly not reading into Boo’s points. Yes, human existence and experience is complex, but will you be willing to inflict more pain and suffering on a child that basically is expressing her identity? Logic states more harm would be done if the child is to be denied of who she or he is, and yet you feel strongly that your way of addressing a transgender child is to restrict her expression.
Listen to Boo, there are ways to address the issue. Puberty blockers are available with no permanent hazards until the child reaches the age of 18 and makes the final decision. There lies so many ways to handle a transgender child properly. If you still are having thoughts to what would happen if a child were to be encouraged to embrace their identity, think about at me. I was totally discouraged from doing so. I was indoctrinated by family, friends, church, schoolmates since I was 8 to conform. I lost a good part of my life growing up a girl.
And you are talking about pain? I will tell you what the real pain is. If I were to be accepted as a transgender child and allowed to take puberty blockers and then hormones administered at the right ages, I would be passable with the right body and able to go on stealth, a form of safety for transsexuals. I would have a feminized body that I can live in comfortably. And I would be able to live my life a little different from what I am now.
So what happened to me now? Intense distress, depression, inability to conform to a specific gender role (I am now a tomboyish transsexual female), not passable, unaccepted with how I look, in the middle of a limbo of neither feminine nor masculine, confused etc.
So lets walk back to age 8 shall we. If you ever have a transgender child, do you wish your child to grow up to have to face not only the external struggles, but also the inner pain? If you desire to still “teach me to be a boy first”, you will destroy a good part of my future 25 years down the road. So, I really do not think I would have wanted you as my father.
But again, I guess you would have your issues, since you call the transgender child “boy”, tell Boo to “Come on man”, and heck you even mentioned your friend who has a sex change that you “treat him as a man and respect his right to make that decision”. If you can get past this shallow representations, only then maybe you will start learning what transgenders and transsexuals are all about, and what we are really going through on life.
Hi Yuki,
Thanks for the response. I’m in a huge rush, so I don’t have time to write anything of consequence, but I did want to clarify something. My use of the term, “Come on, man!” has more to do with my personal colloquialisms than it has to do with anything having to do with the discussion. I haven’t been on this forum sufficiently to know if Boo is male or female, so it wasn’t some sort of a jab at all, and Boo, if you are female, I sincerely apologize for that…it’s a phrase I use, that obviously should have no place in a discussion like this, so many mea culpas for that!
OK…I gotta scoot, but I wanted to clarify that before I left for the day.
Dan in Michigan
You have no idea what I know or don’t know about the subject of transgendered individuals.
I get a very good idea from your repeatedly expressed ignorance. As when you say things like:
I also believe that parents should encourage their children to embrace their biological gender before acquiescing to the requests of the child to live as the opposite gender.
I’ll say it one more time: SHE DID TRY. The result was that her child tried to jump out a window. If you want to debate this issue, please stop ignoring all the facts in favor of your own strawman version of reality.
All one needs to ask is this: have there been any individuals who have questioned their gender, and upon looking back on their life, have indeed seen that it was a phase that they went through? The answer to that is certainly yes.
Here also, you’re ignoring what’s being said. I’ll say it once again, please try to pay attention: NO PERMANENT MEDICAL INTERVENTIONS ARE BEING DONE ON THIS CHILD. If she ever does decide to change back, all she has to do is change clothes and cut her hair. “Phase” over.
If there is only one individual who has ever changed from believing he was a girl, and then embraced being a boy, then it gives credence to the point I was making above: it cannot be a de facto assumption that every and boy and girl who says they desire to be the opposite gender remains as such. Given that fact, it seems wise and prudent to err on the side of encouraging the child to embrace the biological reality of their gender through nurture.
Except that, as you once again continue to ignore, this leads to depression, anxiety, and greatly increased risk of suicide, AS DEMONSTRATED IN THIS CASE. This is the part where I’d like to say something that wouldn’t be printable on this blog. You are intentionally ignoring the fact that your way leads to more dead children, AS ALMOST HAPPENED IN THIS CASE. Please stop ignoring reality in favor of your own preconceptions.
I’m convinced of this: the middle ground that I have laid out reflects an attempt to make this child’s life easier.
As Yuki Choe iand I are trying to tell you, you are convinced of something which is in contravention to the evidence.
If a boy can learn to embrace his identity as a boy, his life will be infinitely more easy than if he eventually undergoes a surgery to change his gender.
At least until people like you and Nicolosi stop choosing to try and make our lives harder.
As to some of your other comments, Boo, they’re really just ad hominem attacks that probably are fun to write in ways where you feel satisfied that you’re zinging me, such as, “But at least you’d be more comfortable, and that’s the important thing in all this, ‘init?”
You have not demonstrated any other reason than your own personal discomfort with the transgendered.
You have an assumption that I would propose that “transkids” can be “fixed” by having sex with members of the opposite gender.
Once again, your recurrent problem with ignoring reality rears its ugly head. That is not what I said at all. I compared your insistence with continuing this child on a course which clearly isn’t working and is causing her harm, with the insistence that gay people be made to have sex only with the opposite sex for several years before being allowed to express our sexuality. As Yuki Choe notes, it’s not a great comparison, because delay is much worse for mtf transsexuals, due to diminishing returns from hormones and potential problems in socialization. I was luckier than her, I got hormones in time to avoid the problems she describes, but not being able to transition in childhood still did a number on my psyche.
You seem to have pegged me as some guy who’s only concerned with “male superiority.”
Actually, gay male superiority, sort of a top o’ the queer heap complex thing you see from people like Jim Fouratt or James Cantor. On that point, I will freely admit I was wrong. This seems to be coming more from a position of religious conviction and pure, and willful, ignorance. That doesn’t make it any better.
I’m beginning to wonder, however, if the only position that’s acceptable to have on this forum is one that says that every child who says he or she wants to be the opposite gender should be instantly encouraged to embrace being their biological opposite.
I don’t see why, since, and I’ll say it one more time in the hopes that you actually read and absorb it this time, and I’ll try a different method than all caps this time so as to maximize the chances of it actually sinking in: That isn’t what happened in this case. Also, there is a clear difference between “encouraging” and “allowing” that you need to learn.
Finally, please stop insulting this child, and by implication all transgendered persons, by continually referring to her as a boy. Insulting children, much like encouraging a course of treatment that increases their risk of suicide, is wrong.
Dan In Michigan,
With all due respect, please read again this much cited and reviewed blog article. It is a compilation of the biological science of transgenders and transsexuals, up to last year’s discovery of a transsexual gene in Australia. If you want all the facts, let me know. I would of course gladly link them for you. Then, let me thank you for agreeing that the child should embrace her/his biological reality. At least we can agree with this here.
Bigender And The Brain
Secondly, you would probably agree with nurturing children to believing the illusion of tooth fairies and Santa Claus, rather than nurture them to accept their real identity, for the sake of a discussion in the sense of childcare… but wait… this is not a childcare issue. This is a medical issue. Let the real professionals handle it, okay? Medical professionals and psychiatrists have placed enough obstacles like the Real Life Test to make sure we do not sue them if anything goes wrong. They, and we the transitioners will know better on this.
Thirdly, if you can call your FTM friend, “man” and “him”, I am sure you would have no problems in addressing people with the correct pronouns, even if the person is 11 years old. Boo is a nice girl. And so am I. And I am sure you a real nice man. But I really wish you would open your mind and learn about the issue of transgenders and transsexuals, instead of assuming based on FOTF and NARTH’s pseudo theories that “it is mostly a phase”.
The “Come on man” thing was an obvious colloquialism (sp?) that didn’t bother me. Unlike the repeated insults to this girl.
Hi Boo,
Thanks for your response. It’s late, and I just read your reply–I was busy having fun at a LOST premier party, which means I’m now a happy camper! But before I go to bed, I would like to know, if you’re comfortable telling me, what your personal history is–I’m assuming you are transgendered…have you transitioned completely? I haven’t been around this website long enough to know. I’ve gathered that Yuki is a woman, but with your name being “Boo,” I can’t make a determination. Have either you or Yuki written your story someplace? If so, I’d like the chance to read your stories. I do appreciate the discussion, and do appreciate the insights you both can bring, since you have lived it. I desire to learn from your stories and your experiences, as well as you thoughts on the subject. Perhaps we won’t ever see eye to eye, but dialog is always a good thing, and for whatever reason, the Dr. Phil excerpt stimulated my thinking about a subject that I haven’t thought about much since my colleague when through his operation, so thanks for being willing to discuss it.
Dan
I desire to learn from your stories and your experiences, as well as you thoughts on the subject.
Unfortunately, my experience with you on this thread leads me to believe that you would ignore large chunks of whatever I would write and make up your own version, so no thanks. If you are simply unwilling to face the actual issues at hand, most prominently the increased risk of suicide caused by attempting to force transkids into inappropriate gender roles, and the fact that the girl in this case already attempted suicide in response to such treatment, there is nothing further to be gained.
Ignorance can be remedied. Dealing with someone who looks up at the sky and says, “Yep, it’s green” is something else.