A message received via e-mail today from exgay activist Chad Thompson:
Hey guys, I wanted to let you know that I just got back from California where I recorded a series of talks that I presented during a conference at Westgate Church in San Jose. In the first talk, “Bringing Christian Love Out of the Closet,” I explain and expand upon the ideas that I first wrote about in my book Loving Homosexuals as Jesus Would.
In the second talk, called “Strategies for Success,” I speak directly to those who are struggling with homosexuality and I unfold a blueprint for complete healing from homosexuality.
“Strategies for Success” is a Must-See presentation for anyone who has personally struggled with homosexuality and is asking the question: Where do I go from here? For more information on these DVD’s click on the link.
Time magazine just released a story on the battle over gay youth that is currently raging in our culture. They mentioned Inqueery a few times in the story. If you want to read what Time had to say about Inqueery, I posted that segment on my blog.
If you’d like to read the whole story online, click the link (it will cost you $1.99). Otherwise you can pick up a copy on the newsstand.
All the pics are of him with his arms around men! Ex-gay another way to pic up men.
I think some exgays view their identity as a means to be emotionally and physically close to people of the same gender without being sexual.
They fail to see that openly same-sex-attracted people can be close to others without being sexual, as well.
Sign me up for this boy’s exgay group 😛
http://www.lovinghomosexuals.com/assets/images/Chad_Frank_Justin.jpg
So what his site basically is is a smokescreen for self-hatred and delusion. A happy, shiny package to sell a bill of goods.
A “complete healing” from homosexuality. What does that mean? Does that mean a gay person can love a member of the opposite sex physically and emotionally? I didn’t see him mention a girlfriend or fiancee on his site, although I didn’t look everyhwere. Is he completely healed from homosexuality?
How many gay men does he know who are now completely heterosexual, never look at another man or touch another man?
This is a very dangerous line of thought. To hide behind a sweet facade as you tell vulnerable gays and lesbians that if you just buy enough merchandise then you will be totally healed. Even a lot of ex-gay organizations never claim to completely heal homosexuals. How nice that the ever right-wing Time sugarcoated this man and his group and told gay teens that they should hate themselves because of nightclubbing and an empty “lifestyle”.
Thompson says a new kind of bigotry has emerged—among gays. “Those of us who have chosen not to embrace this orientation are often misunderstood and sometimes even ridiculed”.Perhaps this is because we see past the saccharine and understand the reality behind the facade is measured by the company he keeps. Let’s be honest — Chad thinks gay is less than straight. Fair enough, he’s welcome to his own path. But that’s not the philosophy held by his companions with regard to ourselves.Despite all flung “our” way, I do not know one gay man or lesbian who honestly hates heterosexuals or who wants straight people to turn gay.Perhaps we’re just not gay enough to understand the “gay life” as well as Chad does.Oh, that’s right. He doesn’t.
Ha! I note James used “sugarcoated”.Sorry James — sugar is a natural substance. Hence, we used “saccharine”… 🙂
Chad Thompson’s site seemed fairly tolerant, but
one thing I noticed on his site:
“…The start of this process was very simple. I just needed to be loved.
Non-sexual affirmation from members of one’s own gender can devour homosexual attractions. The power of this concept was brought home to me when I went on a three-day pleasure trip to Colorado with two college guys from my church, Justin and Ben. To them, we were just three guys having a good time, but to me, the intensity of the experience was almost overwhelming.
Besides the fact that we had an enormoous amount of fun during those three days, the constant stream of affirmation from two guys my own age rendered me a complete disgrace to the homosexual orientation. I couldn’t have drummed up an erotic attraction to another guy even if I tried!”
This does not even sound close to real–it sounds delusional to me. I don’t want to belittle his experience (although he seems to want to apply this to most people’s experience), but I have lots of male friends who are straight, who I am not attracted to at all, and who shower affection on me. It has not once made me less gay in the least. Wow! A three day trip and the gayness disappears. Strange. What do others think about this strange story?
Aaron, that’s part of the hook. What they never mention is that many straight men are unpopular with other men, have been shunned, or were abused or neglected by a parent, and they are still straight. They want people to believe that all gays grow up miserable and all straights have Ozzie and Harriet for parents.
For all the talk of no scientific proof that gays can’t go straight, they never seem to offer any proof of their own. It’s always anecdotal.
My mother/father didn’t love me/molested me so I played sports with a man/hugged a man and now I am happily married with 2.5 kids/free of homosexuality.
For someone who is supposed to be more tolerant of gays, Thompson doesn’t seem to want gays to have very realistic expectations of themselves. Instead he wants them to think that if they buy his merchandise, they will be magically cured.
And shame on Time for giving him and his cohorts a huge national platform and for trying to convince the public that gays live some horrible, seedy life, while ex-gay groups are aw-shucks normal and perfection.
“Perhaps this is because we see past the saccharine and understand the reality behind the facade is measured by the company he keeps.”
Exactly, grantdale. A lot of these ex-gay people seem to think that any questioning of their opinion (which they push as fact) is “intolerance” or “hatred”. They go out and they push for laws that will bar us from raising children, from being able to keep a job, from being able to see our dying partner in the hospital, and if we ever question their need to constantly go after us, then we’re being intolerant. They expect a free ride, even as we are never supposed to have any rights of our own. We are supposed to be grateful if they pat us on the head and pray with us, instead of telling us to burn in hell.
How would he feel if he spent a weekend with another man, playing football and drinking beer and watching sports, and then at the end of the weekend the man told everyone that he was gay? Would he be shocked that this guy did not start making out with every woman in sight due to the magical powers of male bonding? Has he ever tried to spend time with other gay men, in a platonic way? Or would that be too “tolerant”?
I have to say that I have a major problem with the Evangelical Christian approach to many things and not just gay issues. They often claim to have some sort of patent on the Bible as though their interpretation of scripture is God inspired and anyone who dare think otherwise is going to hell. Evangelical Christianity tends to be a baby food religion and it does not allow its members to progress to higher understanding of scripture, faith, etc. When I was a kid and was involved in an Evangelical Church I felt that many of the deeper questions I had could never be answered by the ministers or any of my leaders. I therefore just studied the Bible on my own and learned far more than I did in Bible school or from listening to endless sermons.
Being gay has been one thing to be persecuted over because I have wished to reconcile my gayness with being Christian and Evangelicals typically do not believe that is possible. The second issue for which I have been persecuted for is joining and believing the basic message of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) of which Evangelicals have written countless tracts, books and other publications about stating that my Church is a “non-Christian cult”. Evangelicals use the same kind of rhetoric in their anti-Mormon tracts as they do in their anti-gay publications. They are notorious for using half truths, stacking the deck, generalizations, the straw man approach and many other fallacious argumentative styles. I sometimes feel like I’m listening to a bunch of spoiled brats (kids who don’t want you to intrude on their magical world view) who just don’t want to grow up and deal with reality in thinking outside of their narrow theological box. There are obviously several Mormons who are like this as well in that they have adopted that kind of style of thinking and doing things unfortunately.
The foundational teachings of Mormonism are revolutionary and very liberal however regarding further revelation, more scripture than just the Bible and the reality that we lived with God prior to our mortality here, that this life is an important journey and step in our eternal progress and advancement in being more like God. Whether we are Mormons, mainstream Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Budists, etc. we are all on this journey together in this earthly school.
After coming from an Evangelical background as a child and then embracing the Latter-day Saints I have found one principle extremely liberating and incredibly revolutionary. Joseph Smith, Jr. realized when he was a 14 year old boy (after experiencing the conflict over the various sects of Christianity) that he did not have to ask the ministers about that which he was seeking. Their answers typically conflicted with each other anyway. Joseph learned he could go to God Himself and He found out that God not only answered Him but revealed Himself to Joseph in a most incredible way like we see with the ancient prophets in the Bible. I learned that all scripture is not contained in the Bible only but that the cannon is still open and that further revelation is being given and forthcoming. That is revolutionary to me as a gay man because I know that God has more in store for me and for our community that is yet to be revealed. I’m not stuck in the same old quandary as my Evangelical brothers and sisters. I can think outside of that narrow theological box and realize that God has many great and mysterious things to reveal concerning me and those like me. He has revealed many of these things to me personally but I am praying for a collective revelation to come up on the rest of this world that will begin to force millions to think outside of the box and start realizing who we really are.
Inspite of my Church’s narrow policies about homosexuality and heterosexual marriage (the nuclear family) the basic core teachings are what I believe in. Jesus never said one word about homosexuality in the Bible and homosexuality was just as prevalent (the ratio or percentage of homosexuals and heterosexuals) anciently as it is today even though it really had no label like we have today. It wasn’t as though it was some obscure issue. Also the Latter-day Saint scriptures which I believe are from God as well, have nothing to say on the subject either. The silence is deafening and I believe it is one of the mysteries of God. Homosexuality most definitely is not a baby food issue in the least. Only those who can open their minds to further light and knowledge can wholly embrace themselves as God wants us to. We have a tremendous calling as GLBT children of God to teach the world and to love ourselves as we are and as God loves us. Whether we are Christian or not WE ARE ALL THE CHILDREN OF A LOVING GOD and we came from His presence before this life. That is another truth I embrace completely.
That segues into yet another concept I cannot accept. That is the Calvanistic doctrine of ultimate depravity which Evangelicals have accepted hook line and sinker. I believe that this is one of the basic theological problems that Evangelicals have and if they would enlarge their view to see the big picture they would have far less of a problem with people being gay than they do now. They often use this doctrine in playing their blame game using GLBT people as a scapegoat. The truth is we were created free and we are free. We came from the light and therefore we do have potential for good in everyone of us whether we are Christians or not. We all are responsible for our own lives and actions and we can choose good as opposed to choosing to harm ourselves or others.
I took Joseph Smith’s example (asking God directly as opposed to taking man’s word for it) and have asked God about where I stand as a gay man and whether I can be whole and receive all of the blessings that my heterosexual brothers and sisters enjoy and take for granted. I have received the answers from God and that is that He loves me as I am and that this thing that people call gay is an amazing blessing and challenge that came from God. What I do with this God given orientation in living a kind and loving life as a gay Christian is what God really cares about. I can have all of the same blessings (equally and completely) as my heterosexual friends including having a loving and supportive companion/man. I have other Latter-day Saint friends who have received this same answer while they were praying within the Temple and have heard God whisper to them that their orientation is not evil but is good and that they needed to go forth and choose good and live a Christlike life of love and serving others, not hating or harming themselves. God is about diversity. Is it any wonder that He would create diversity within orientations?
In spite of all of these things my own Church has a long way to go in order to fully embrace and treat its gay and lesbian members with the full dignity and understanding we all deserve as children of God. There is a tremendous GLBT community within the Latter-day Saint community and culture. We have a legacy of pain and persecution just like Evangelicals but we have truly come a long distance in embracing ourselves and teaching our Church about who we really are. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has seen some very positive changes and that is always a wonderful sign.
If you look at the links on the Affirmation.org website you’ll see that there is a tremendous amount of gay affirming support in the LDS GLBT community.
It is interesting that Chad is offering a blueprint to “complete healing from homosexuality” when he admits in Time and other sources that he still has some homosexual attractions. I’d be interested to hear what his definition of healing is.
Aaron and James,
The reason that some kids seem to live perfect lives and end up gay, while others can grow up in very abusive situations and end up being straight, is becuase the human mind is very complex; The way that children react to things mentally and emotionally is based more on how they perceive their circumstances, than on what those circumstances actually are.
I don’t believe that all gay men and women grew up in dysfunctional families, or that all gay men and women have poor relationships with their mom and dad. I agree with you that many Christians have stereotyped gay and lesbian people, that’s one of the things I speak out against in my talks.
Spending three days in a car with guys will NOT make someone straight. But if you’ve been rejected by your male peers your whole life, as I was, then an experience like that can be VERY powerful.
All the best my friends,
Chad Thompson
>This does not even sound close to real–it sounds delusional to me.>This does not even sound close to real–it sounds delusional to me.
Chad,
good to see you drop by.
I just read your April editorial in the Des Moines Register.
While we disagree as to the necessity and morality of reorientation (I’m still not convinced it actually ever completely occurs but I’m willing to hold off judgement on that for a while), I have no problem with your lobbying to have your alternate view included in education (provided that all claims made are substantiated).
I am, however, uncomfortable with one of your arguments. You state that a safe environment should be provided for those students who “have chosen not to embrace their homosexualy, as well as those who have”. This presupposes that there are students who find it unsafe to not embrace their homosexuality and that nothing is done for them.
Were this the case, I would champion your cause to have them protected. But it isn’t. And you know that. There are no children being taunted, tortured, and beat up BECAUSE they don’t embrace their homosexuality.
But supposing they existed, it still would not be justification to oppose a bullying program. A moral person would seek to stop the bullying that we know exists and then expand the program to those that you theoretically say are bullied.
Further, you imply that those reading from the Bible were simply trying to get a more inclusive program. This isn’t true. And you know it.
They were reading the Bible to show why gay kids SHOULD NOT be protected from bullying.
They would never phrase it that way. Instead they see themselves as opposing an immoral lifestyle, agenda, etc. Yet nonetheless, the persons hearing them clearly understand that gay kids DESERVE to be bullied.
I know that you say that the church should back off – and on that we agree. But you, as a Christian, have a moral obligation to tell the truth. And when you are witnessing by means of editorial, you have a greater obligation: that the testimony not only be true but also not be a false witness (i.e. cannot imply something other than complete truth).
Your editorial bore false witness.
Spending three days in a car with guys will NOT make someone straight. But if you’ve been rejected by your male peers your whole life, as I was, then an experience like that can be VERY powerful.
You’re right Mr. Thompson – something very similar happened to me while trying the “ex-gay” route years ago, but it took much longer than 3 days. After a childhood spent shunning sports (having motor control brain damage after a bout of bacterial meningitis means I was lousy at sports), I fell into a crowd of Ultimate Frisbee players (don’t laugh, it’s a real sport). Being around, and living with, these straight male athletes was a window into the world I’d always wanted to be a part of. I started working out and losing weight and ended up playing Ultimate with them, albeit at a much lower level of competence.
Over time I became good enough to be asked to join their more exclusive “clique league” team – unlike our typical local league play, to which one is randomly assigned each season, “clique league” teams are formed by their captains, and stay together over years. I will never forget the night when, complete with trumpet-blaring fanfare, I was asked to join the team. It was the single greatest moment of my life, to that point.
Funny thing was, through all this attempts at “repairing” my life and becoming straight, which included actually playing catch in the front yard of our house with my straight male friends/teammates, not once did I ever experience any change in my sexual or romantic desires. I used to try to convince myself that I wasn’t really gay because I wasn’t attracted to these guys, but I never was attracted to any of the women in the league either (Ultimate is typcially played as a co-ed sport).
It was only after coming out, when I realized I could be a completely competitive Ultimate player while also being a big fairy, that I had the kind of reaction Timothy talks about – not only were my straight male friends completely different, physically, than the typical guy I am attracted to, I would not have been attracted to them even if they were my perfect physical ideal of a man. Why? Because they are straight!
When one is attracted to someone, beyond the mere appreciation of their physical beauty, it is almost always because there is that electricity, that spark, between the two of you. It may be hidden behind anger and resentment (think of the TV shows Moonlighting or Cheers), but that spark is key to attraction.
But that spark is completely missing when a straight guy and a gay guy are together – which is one of the main reasons I scoff at the fears straight men seem to have about gays in the locker room, military, etc. We aren’t going to jump their bones, because there is no reciprocity, and it is those reciprocal feelings that make for the “heat.”
(in the above I use “bullying program” though the article discusses a non-dicrimination program. This was based on the nature of discrimination discussed and “bullying” seemed to be a more accurate discription. sorry for any confusion)
Hellloooooooooo…!
Can a woman say something?
Male bonding has so many cultural definitions of acceptance and responsibility and emotional connection that’s not sexual, but affectionate and caring.
And what that means in cultural norms.
In Arab cultures, of all places, men kiss on the lips and hold hands while walking as a public declaration of their friendship to each other.
Indeed, the philosopher Kahlil Gibran’s chapter “On Friendship” from The Prophet reveals a profound affection and devotion to a presumably male friend because of the ‘he’ or ‘him’ reference in the text.
Gibran was a Lebanese Catholic…so who knows.
But all kinds of classic literature is rife with such relationships and if they are or were sexual at all, or a little is left for speculation.
This all or nothing approach to gender norms that the ex gay movement espouses is really too conformist for words.
It doesn’t have degrees of what a person just happens to be or whatever personalities they might have to make them unattractive to whatever gender.
The sort of control that Christians tend to arrogate is male centric, and would be a turnoff to a woman like me…who is fiercly independent of intellect and spirit over MOST men, who themselves don’t have a lot of identity outside of what privilege their GENDER has given them.
Chad, at a tender age…was already not arranged to accept his identity through other healthy homosexuals, but the influence of the prejudiced conditioning around him and that old saw…a distant father.
But what does that really mean?
Some gay boys sense their fathers won’t accept them and it’s the kid that withdraws, not the dad, lest his gay identity be too easy to detect.
Exodus doesn’t see individuals very clearly.
Just genders, and gives instructions for people to arrange themselves within the borders of gender directed by whoever is interpreting the Bible for them.
Sheep are sheep.
It’s not the easiest thing to think for yourself when you’re a kid.
Which is why the ex gay movement wants to grab a gay kid as soon as possible. They’ll STAY sheep, hopefully.
And natural rebellion and assertion of one’s gender identity starts around puberty.
The confusion might only occur in homes with rigid gender expectations and the kids aren’t like the expectations.
This is true of homes with smart kids with parents dumb as dirt too.
I guess I’m the only one on this board who has actually talked to Chad by phone at length.
He’s a sweetheart. He really is.
But being a guy….I could draw my own conclusions on why his being a sweetheart of a guy, was rearranged into something else, less than ever gay.
I guess I have to ask….what’s the point in offering ‘complete healing from homosexuality’?
That’s the banner title.
I would have to wonder in all the fine print, just how well a gay kid would get to understand the depth and length of commitment to the ‘heterosexual lifestyle’.
What exactly IS the heterosexual lifestyle,Chad?
How much of that lifestyle is superficial appearances and something more profound, like personality?
This is where the misunderstandings get involved.
It all sounds SO easy to be hetero, if you’re gay.
But there are these disciplines involved that MOST heterosexuals NEVER have to employ.
I mean, they don’t sound harsh, or as mindful as they really are.
Us heterosexuals NEVER have to THINK about what we are, who will like us as heterosexuals, or deal with quieting the storms within that ARE natural and FEEL right for us.
Gay kids having to work SO HARD at being what they aren’t, is a burden unto itself that taking it to a classroom seems a set up.
A big set up.
Look at all the THINKING and praying and promises you had to make, Chad.
Well, you’re not asking why YOU, JUST because as a boy…you felt kinda gay.
And then with enough persuasion, you were ‘oh yeah…THEY were right, I DON’T have to be gay!’
Well, what’s it to YOU, if other kids just aren’t REQUIRED to go there?
In your inqueeery website, you want to show up WHEN GLSEN, or a GSA is up to offer the ‘other side’.
But that’s as IF the other side and what you espouse hasn’t been a part of these kids lives ALREADY and ALL ALONG!.
So in fact, what you do Chad, is redundant.
Very.
And that’s what I try to tell you.
It’s not that millions haven’t already done and tried what you do…it’s that they already have for a very long time.
And it DIDN’T WORK, without a lot of disappointment, shattered expectations and anger at themselves for what they bought into.
So no, you’re wanting to insert yourself where a kid is most vulnerable as you yourself were and in many ways SILL are.
Look HOW LONG you’ve been appropriating the heterosexual lifestyle and go on tours to assert it.
So WHAT’S so important about being heterosexual?
What’s SO important about it that you are working to convince other young people to ONLY embrace it as long as they choose and are convinced they don’t want to live the gay lifestyle.
But the reality is, Chad…they DON’T choose.
They NEVER have and NEVER do.
And neither did you. You never had a choice.
There were other coercive factors involve that made you not want to be gay.
This is often excised from the discussion on ‘choosing’.
And working to convince other kids it isn’t there, reveals that you’re not as secure in your choice as you have us or those kids believe.
Particularly since that’s most of what has been taught them already.
You told me in your email that I wanted you to change.
No, I don’t.
I want young gay people to be LEFT ALONE. Period.
We will NEVER know it’s really a choice, unless and until-
1. Either people believe what gay people say about it and them, and leave it at that.
2. More overall acceptance would show how many kids would never try to change or be convinced they could, EVER.
You might be TALKING to gay kids, but are you LISTENING?
If Chad says that he doesn’t have sexual feelings for his buddies, he doesn’t.
Only the Struggler knows what the truth is, for it is his/her battle alone and no one else’s. In fact, no one who has NOT struggled with homosexuality would be served well not to speak on this subject, for truly, you know nothing about it. The struggle is always personal. Always.
If Chad says he’s not gay anymore, the respectful thing to do is to believe him and honor his own choices.
Peace,
Marcus
Marcus
I used to be human but now I’m a dolphin.
And because I’m an ex-human, I’m going to campaign to eliminate your rights. I’ll tell your kids that it is evil to be human, I’ll try to have your marriage invalidated, I’ll even try to have you put in jail in Texas and if anyone disagrees I’ll call them an activist judge.
The respectful thing is to believe me and honor my choices.
Marcus,
1. Most people who comment at this site have struggled with homosexuality. I think we know a lot about the subject.
2. I believe your suggestion that struggle with sexual attraction is “personal” is a half-truth, and it is dangerously subjective and relativistic.
The struggle is not merely personal when, as Timothy noted, an exgay such as Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas, or Stephen Bennett uses his own struggle to help inflict discrimination and prejudice upon others. Then the struggle is not personal; it is sadistic. The struggle also is not merely personal when it prompts an exgay to marry heterosexually and then cheat on one’s spouse.
The respectful thing is to tell the uncomfortable truth, and
to not change the meaning of the words “gay” and “homosexual” back and forth in mid-story. It is immoral to claim one is healed of homosexuality and at the same time acknowledge one’s ongoing sexual attraction to the same gender. Why? Because “homosexuality” and same-gender sexual attraction are the same thing.
I honor Chad’s choice to refrain from same-gender sex. I do not honor misleading offers of “complete” healing from same-gender attraction.
I have a good friend who is a vegan.
She CAN eat meat (dairy, eggs, etc), and
in fact, by some people’s reckoning, it
would be completely ‘natural’ for her to
do so. She refrains from eating those
foods for spiritual and ethical reasons –
she believes that doing so would be wrong
FOR HER.
She knows that I eat meat (dairy, eggs, etc),
and I’m sure she believes that I’d be better
off if I didn’t. Does she attempt to persuade
me to that position? Does she organize a group to send ‘educational’ teams into my son’s elementary school, promoting the idea of veganism? Does she lobby governmental agencies to limit or eliminate public access to these foods?
No, she doesn’t. She leaves my own moral and ethical choices up to me, insofar as it doesn’t interfere with her own choices.
Marcus, Chad, does the parallel suggest itself, or do you need further clarification? If so, look up PETA’s website, and consider it as a mirror.
I respect Chad’s willingness, and kindness, to come on here, but I think what bothers me is not that his experience was valid for him. I don’t know Chad and I don’t know what he has been through, but the website seems to suggest that everyone can go through the experience and acheive complete “reversal” of homosexuality. That is more what I have a problem with…
Actually, from what I see, Chad seems to be one of the most tolerant exgay activists I have ever seen. Good luck to him.
“Actually, from what I see, Chad seems to be one of the most tolerant exgay activists I have ever seen. Good luck to him.”
He seems like a really friendly person. I don’t want to come across as being rude here. But again, to tell gays that they can be COMPLETELY HEALED…I think it’s unsettling.
Chad (if you’re still reading this) – how many gay men do you know who have gone from gay to completely heterosexual, never thinking of or looking at other men? Or is there another defition of completely healed?
“Spending three days in a car with guys will NOT make someone straight. But if you’ve been rejected by your male peers your whole life, as I was, then an experience like that can be VERY powerful.”
If I may ask:
How many times were you actually in love – emotionally or physically attracted to men? Is there a chance that you just thought you were gay? I have seen this happen to some straight boys or men. They were so ostracized that they felt different and they thought that meant they were gay. But then they were never attracted to other men, they never really identified as gay, and they soon became involved with women. I don’t consider that ex-gay because they were never really gay to start with.
Whenever I broach the subject of one claiming to change from homosexual to heterosexual, I sense a discourse about the causes of homosexuality. It is most unfortunate that it is not fully known as this would sure help in both individual and societal acceptance. I do not buy into the concepts that are continually spun by churches and evangelical christians. In their viewpoint, sexual orientation towards homosexuality is exclusively environment and that is therefore justification for condemnation and pressure to become heterosexual. That is the jist of what I hear from ex-gays and I am disgusted by the rhetoric that they spin and the statements made to the effect that since they changed that all should change because they are currently unworthy of a happy life. In this quest, these people join fundamentalist christians in fighting everything that the gay person seeks: dignity, respect, equality and the right to live their lives as they were meant to on this earth. This is the problem that I have with their movement, not their claims to have changed, that is their right to claim whatever they want to. On the issue of causation, I believe it is a complex hormonal interaction int he womb and/or a genetic marker (I have a gay cousin) and is somehow enhanced during gestation. I do not fit any of the nurture sterotypes: I have a great parents and a good family history, I played sports, I interacted with peers in the “normal” sense. I have always known I was gay and identified as such. So what gives? In a nutshell, people can claim whatever they want to, but, they do not have the right to quash equality and legislation to protect gays from an unforgiving world. I find especially revolting that Mr Thompson and other ex-gays would rally against anti-bullying legislation. Are they insane? Obviously they have never been on the receiving end of a fist or hateful harassment. For the most part though, I will speak out against the ex-gay movement because I feel it is the wrong way to go and reflects little more than religious brain washing. I ask, where are the ex-gays who are not christians or have bought into a very pitiful view of religion? The simple answer is there aren’t any. The “cure” rate is actually around 0% because there is nothing to cure. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay, it is not a “lifestyle”, it is an orientation and part of our make-up as a person. Christians should begin to focus their efforts on issues that are affecting all of us such as irreversible environmental damage, genocide, hunger, poverty and abuse to name but a few of the issues of importance to humanity. Homosexuals are human beings and it is a fact of life, deal with it! Tim W.
These are the things that I have been accused of doing by people in this forum:
1-Campaigning to eliminate gay people’s rights. (Timothy)
2-Telling kids that it is evil to be gay. (Timothy)
3-Trying to invalidate a gay person’s marriage. (Timothy)
4-Putting someone in jail in Texas and then calling them an activist judge because they disagreed with me. (Timothy)
5-Sending groups into schools to “promote” the idea of being ex-gay. (Robert)
6-Lobbying governmental agencies to limit or eliminate public access to information about [homosexuality]. (Robert)
7-Rallying against anti-bullying legislation. (Tim W.)
My ministry hasn’t done a single one of these things.
I hope that you guys continue to discuss these important issues and to pursue the truth, that’s important. But please check your facts before making accusations.
All the best to you my friends.
Chad Thompson
Chad, I took Tim’s comments to mean only that exgays often use experiences such as yours to deny access to rights. I did not read into it that he was accusing you of anything.
I think one positive thing about your ministry is that you do not seem to be political. Many exgay ministries seem to be less about healing and God and more about politics against homosexuals. That bothers many of us. Exodus, for instance, has become very tied to Republican politics. In fact, I think there would be little problem between gays and exgays if the political element was removed completely. I have always found it strange that many of these ministries are run by straight, Republican think tanks.
I see several problems here. One is that Chad truly is not a part of the religious right. He seems to be a stand alone guy. And one who does not take part in religious right activities. On the other hand, it is fair to point out that the religious right uses him, and all the public exgays, for its own purposes. Which would make me wonder if there are exgays who do not automatically become part of the religious right. This is an issue that exgays need to consider more realisticly. While being or becoming exgay has some bible thingy attached to it, can it be done without strengthening the religious right? And if as I suspect it can’t, can being exgay be a moral or ethical path? My own answer would be NO. Since any and all exgay activities get swept up into the religious right, the exgay must either accept that he is part of the religious right OR must renounce this path. I do not see a third way. And I do not see Chad as moving in that direction.
Second, to my mind Evangelical Christianity really does not strike me as a religion. Instead it looks very much like a system of operant and sympathetic Magic. The whole vast enterprise is not all that different from stiking pins in a wax doll. To call this a religious or ethical system is ridiculous IMHO. It is a form of magic: by acting like a straight guy one becomes a straight guy. Pure Magic, which I feel is a real and potent way of interacting with the world.
On ongoing revelation. I feel that the important and operant revelation for the current age is Gerald Gardiner’s Witchcraft Today. All previous revelations being inoperative.
Chad, my question to you is this. If it is not possible for exgays to in some way be used by the Religious Right against gays, is it not the moral and ethical course of action to renounce the exgay path. In other words, to say that this is not a viable way of being for most people? I feel that whatever one might personally feel, or whatever bible thingies are involved, exgays have an obligation to consider the consequences of their actions. And if the consequences are deleterious to others, they need to abandon their activities. To do otherwise is simply wrong and immoral.
Chad Thompson said “My ministry hasn’t done a single one of these things.”Chad, we’ve been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and to think that you were merely naive and misguided. We had assumed you simply didn’t know — because of ignorance — the harm you caused, regardless of an expressed wish not to do that.But, alas, you have thoroughly lied on that last post.–1-Campaigning to eliminate gay people’s rights. (Timothy)
2-Telling kids that it is evil to be gay. (Timothy)
3-Trying to invalidate a gay person’s marriage. (Timothy)
4-Putting someone in jail in Texas and then calling them an activist judge because they disagreed with me. (Timothy)
5-Sending groups into schools to “promote” the idea of being ex-gay. (Robert)
6-Lobbying governmental agencies to limit or eliminate public access to information about [homosexuality]. (Robert)
7-Rallying against anti-bullying legislation. (Tim W.)
Chad, the whole purpose of this site is to pursue the truth and confront the farce that is the ex-gay movement. I do not believe in the “christian love” that you claim. I am deeply offended by the whole concept that your movement promotes: that a homosexual must change to heterosexual and that if one does not, they are unworthy; sinners and sodomites are the terms that your ilk love to label us with. You deny having particpated in initiatives to deny gay people equality and simple dignity. Simply participating in something as anti-gay and prejudice as Agape Press speaks volumes for your motivation. I am also fed up with the use of code words such as pro-family, gay agenda, moral values, etc, all of these reek of a movement that seeks to destroy the lives of gays and lesbians. In the United States, that movement, alas, is succeeding with such initatives as amending the constitution to deny gay families equality, repealing of key gay rights legislation and banning pride events amongst other sinister plots. You can say anything you want Chad, I am not convinced that your claims hold any merit at all. You have been quoted as calling the “gay agenda” evil. How dare you. Take a look in the mirror and those organizations around you: Illinois Family Institute (sound familiar), Focus on the Family, Concerned Women and let’s not forget Exodus International if you want to see the face of evil. All of these organizations are causing irreparable harm to gay and lesbian citizens, claiming to be christians and loving people. Tell that to the young gay man beaten and humiliated in a school yard because of the bullshit coming from right wing christians. Don’t bother coming back with the “where’s your proof of christians harming gays”. Take a look around the US and tell me that the christian right is not responsible for the rampant gay bashing that has escalated in the last 2-3 years. They bare the responsibility for this. I am not interested at all in born-again christianity, and all of its hypocrisy, insanity and cult like antics. If you wish to pursue being a christian, I suggest you check out “Soulforce” who represent what true christianity is all about, and by the way, they don’t expect you to lie and pretend to be something you are not.
I think what bothers me is the insinuation that ‘if it worked for me, it can work for you’… which then leads to the “if it’s not working for you, then it’s obviously your own fault”.
People have a right to try and be ex-gay if they want to, and this may get me stoned on blog, but those organizations have a right to exist, and even to have their opinions heard in public forums… but when they call themselves “Christian” and then promise healing, an it doesn’t work, they find a loophole in their promise that blames the very person who came to them for help, and that is so harmful, and hurtful. And do not take this to mean that I associate being gay with being sick, but can you imagine a doctor telling a person who hadn’t responded well to chemotherapy that it was their own fault… if they’d really wanted to get better, and had their priorities straight (no pun intended) they would be better by now?
These people that go to ex-gay organizations really want to be straight, and these organizations pretty much guarantee results, even though the statistics don’t back them up — I mean, they quote Spitzer as saying that it’s possible, but even the statistics that study (flawed as it was)came up with aren’t that good.
Anyway, I’m babbling here. But that’s my problem with these organizations. The promise, and then the blame.
Hey JJ – you won’t get stoned here for expressing those views 🙂 Ex-Gay Watch has always supported the right of persons to be – or attempt to be – ex-gay. Imposing that expectation on others through political maneuvering – and inaccurate, misleading promises of change – is what is challenged here.
I struggle with being a woman. I have struggled with being black.
And sometimes I’ve hated being both things.
Why?
Because of how OTHER people treated me because I was black and/or female.
Struggle is a fact of life. However, constant socio/political factors that CREATE and FOSTER the struggle itself cannot be left out of this, Chad.
As I emailed to you. Identity is a powerful thing and HOW, TO WHOM, and WHY one GIVES IT UP cannot be ignored either.
You didn’t CHOOSE not to be gay. You were fearful of it, and knew deeply what it would cost you if you disclosed that identity.
So you denounced and abdicated it before it barely matured.
And…you validate a good deal of the hater’s license against gay people.
I’ll say it again…you VALIDATE a great portion of what HATERS use against gay people.
You can’t say two things at once and talk from two mouths and say you’re doing good work and it’s okay to insinuate this hater’s tool wherever you want an opportunity and it’s okay because you mean well.
You didn’t struggle, and neither did your gay peers here with homosexuality all by itself.
You struggled with the anti gay CONDITIONING of yourself and your parents and social environment.
Just as I struggled with being black and female with race and gender bigots.
The difference between us Chad, and all other ex gays…is I haven’t given up my identity.
And there are ways that could have happened.
I know black women who refuse to go out with men of color. They’ll only date white men exclusively.
Their associations are mostly with white people and they live far from their black families and disconnect themselves from intimacy with black people on a regular basis.
That’s THEIR way of being EX black. If they were light skinned enough to pass.
It’s unlikely they would NEVER mention they were black at all.
I know EXACTLY what you are, Chad.
You’re not ONE of us anymore, Chad. You gave up that identity.
You can’t effectively defend people with pebbles in their shoes…when you dumped your own pebble.
Then come off as if saying ‘I dumped my pebble so I can walk better.’
No, you dumped your pebble to leave what you couldn’t handle for the OTHERS to do so.
Then you come running back saying ‘I’m WHICHU bro!’
That puts a serious dent in your street cred with whom this discussion matters.
We can accept that you’re no longer gay and you’re committed to that.
Fine. Good for YOU.
But understand this:
You help the haters. Because part of the hater agenda is coercion for ALL gays to change, or be silent-regardless that gay people have no NEED or obligation to.
You seem to expect gratitude from gay people for what you do, or at least not so much criticism.
Struggle for many of us, makes us stronger, Chad.
And more empathetic with it in others.
Instead of capitulating to what we struggle with, we HANDLE it and record it for others so that THEY will be stronger from our experience.
We don’t need capitulation, and teaching young people how to do that for heterosexual sensibility.
We’ve had centuries of that.
We need something new. Young people who are willing and able to beat back assumptions and presumptions about their identity and who will OWN it.
My strength comes from facing haters and beating them at their own game.
You’re not gay, black or a woman…so, where’s YOUR cred to speak about how it feels to struggle, and then get past it with your identity STILL THERE?
Chad,
First let me say that I have more respect for you than for a great many in the ex-gay community. I don’t believe that you are motivated by hate or that you consider my life to be your personal political battlefield for good v. evil.
But that doesn’t mean I’ll let you get away with dishonesty.
You state that I made a number of accusations against you. If you go back and look at the post that you quote, you’ll see that it was addressed to Marcus, was written in the form of satire, and was addressing the issue of believing people and honoring choices.
It was clearly speaking about the greater ex-gay community, and not about you specifically. I would not have made accusation against you personally without supporting it (Mike never lets us get away with that).
However, when you stated that your ministry hasn’t done any of those things and asked us to “check our facts” you invited scrutiny. Grantdale (wonderful researchers that they are) were, ironically, able to document nearly every “accusation” against you.
I hope that this won’t discourage you from participating here more. Your input is valued.
However, please remember that this is not a site in which hyperbole, spin, half-truths, and unsupported claims will be allowed to stand unchallenged. We give truth much higher regard here than do your usual contemporaries.
I would like to read a public explanation by Chad for his statements posted by grantdale.
I would add that along with the various public-school focused Safe-Schools Coalitions across the country, there is an organization that works to be a resource for GLBT youth in religious schools
HEARTSTRONG http://www.heartstrong.org
Chad Thompson said “My ministry hasn’t done a single one of these things.”
1-My ministry has never campaigned to eliminate gay people’s rights.
2-My ministry has never told kids that it is evil to be gay. I do NOT share my personal religious views about homosexuality in public schools (unless I am specifically asked by a student what I believe, in a situation like that, it would be disingenuous for me not be honest, however this is completely different than telling a kid that it’s “evil” to be gay).
3-You took my statement to Agape Press out of context. I always have been and always will be willing to do interviews with conservative political organizations, that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything they do anymore than doing an interview with the Washington Post means that I support their editorial positions. (I’m actually not sure why anyone would draw that conclusion.)
4-My ministry has never tried to invalidate a gay person’s marriage. The statement Timothy made was not about my personal convictions regarding gay marriage, the statement was that my ministry had tried to “invalidate a gay persons’ marriage.” My ministry does not do those things.
5-I referenced Paul Cameron in that article to rebuke Christians who use his research to stereotype LGBT people, you have to look at the context…
6-My ministry has never put someone in jail in Texas and then called them an activist judge because they disagreed with me.
6-As far as my work in the school’s. I encourage parents to network with conservative groups only when their rights are being violated. You’ll notice that each of those links on my site is in the context of promoting equal time in schools. This is about education, not politics. My goal is not, and never has been, to shut down gay affirmative programs, my goal is to give the ex-gay perspective equal time. My only problem is when these gay affirmative groups try to exclude the ex-gay perspective.
Blessings to you all, and thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my positions.
Chad Thompson
Oh I see, Chad. We’re playing that game are we?Unfortunately, a response will have to wait (as we are about to host 3 heterosexuals couples for dinner) beyond this:
Maybe the “it’s not me, it’s my ministry” will fool someone who doesn’t realise they are one and the same. We’d also appreciate an answer to all the questions you have avoided.
Chad,
Me, as a gay man, would you say that I would more than likely be better off by attempting to become straight?
Further, what is better, coming to terms with myself as a gay man, or becoming an ex-gay?
I’m not trying to play a game, I am merely pointing out that the statement I made was not a lie. If you are talking about me personally, yes I used to work for an organization that opposed gay marriage, but I no longer work for the political think tank in Iowa, yet you act as though I do.
If the point you are trying to make is that I have been involved politically in the past, then I will agree with you. You have made your point.
I apologize if I was unclear earlier Grantdale.
All the best
Chad Thompson
Chad,
There was no confusion about what was said. Grantdale, myself, others were not referencing “your ministry” or making some distinction between that and yourself.
Chad, this is the sort of thing that we here at exgaywatch concern ourselves about: the dishonesty of the ex-gay ministries and activists.
To quote YOUR posting from above:
“These are the things that I have been accused of doing by people in this forum:
…
1 though 7
…
My ministry hasn’t done a single one of these things.”
You will note that you said “I have been accused” and answered it with “my ministry hasn’t”. YOU joined the meaning of the two, not us.
Secondly, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. It’s dishonest.
“The statement Timothy made was…”
No, Chad, if you bother for two seconds to go back and read it or my follow-up posting, you will know that it was directed at the ex-gay ministries in general. Not at you. AND CERTAINLY AT NO POINT DID I MENTION YOUR MINISTY.
AT ALL.
SO STOP SAYING SO.
I don’t object to your point of view. I don’t even object to your ministry to the extent that it does not harm gay people.
But you (collectively and individually) have to stop lying, spinning, twisting, deceiving and every other ing.
God doesn’t need you to lie on His behalf. In fact, He demands that you be honest. He demands that your witness have no falseness in it.
It’s not that hard. Give it a try.
Hi Timothy,
I am truly sorry if I mis-represented what you were saying. Please accept my apology.
I made the assumption that you were talking about me when you said those things becuase you were responding directly to Marcus who was defending me. Next time I will read your posts more carefully before responding.
All the best to you my friend,
Chad Thompson
Chad,
Thanks for the apology.
I do believe that gay people and ex-gay people can, at some point, reach agreement and mutual respect. You, I think, are one of the few on the ex-gay side who get that (or so I hope).
But I am firmly convinced that this will only happen when all dishonesty stops.
Gays absolutely cannot falsely accuse you or (and I’m guilty of this) assume that because Dobson does something truly immoral that you share the blame. And I’ve seen you step up to the plate and vocally oppose the hate and lies.
But with love I gotta tell you…you also have to hold yourself to a higher standard of honesty. You can’t hide between the distinction between yourself and your ministry and deny things that you did, indeed, say. And you must make sure that both you AND your ministry are always fully truthful and don’t present “your side” or exagerate or shade the truth or spin a story (the Des Moines editorial was shameful).
Nonetheless, I’m hoping that the future holds reconciliation between gay people and those who, for whatever reason, choose not to follow their orientation.
I am amazed at the comments on this site. Such passion. It’s rather cool.
The struggle is personal.
If it effects others, because those in power, who have struggled, use it to reach out to others with the same message- it’s their right and choice. I realize the dangers of such freedom and I am a firsthand account of what the damage does. But the person who struggles with homosexuality SHOULD have all available resources to him to accept or change him or herself according to their OWN personal truth.
That’s all. The ex-gay ministries exist because strugglers want them to exist. And as long as the bible is in existence to state that God views all homosexual acts as sin, it will always be so.
Marcus
Chad, you are indeed playing a game. Who do you imagine you’re talking to?
You have pointedly lied about your activities.
You have attempted to manipulate people into thinking that you and you ministry are two divorced entities — despite the fact that each consist only of you.
You have distanced yourself from anti-gay groups, despite the fact your past and current connections are all over the internet.
Rather than being honest about what is plain; you have instead immaturely accused people of taking you out of context or being confused. You have glibly apologized for being unclear, instead of apologizing for what you should have.
I have no real idea why you would have done this here (of all places)
This exchange has left us with the clear impression that you are manipulative and dishonest, and that the claimed message of your ministry is in fact a gross fraud. Bluntly, that you are a Trojan horse.
Chad, your behavior in the past days has been too sad. We hope you reflect on it.
regards, Grant and Dale.
We reply below to the questions in the exchange for anyone who has any further interest. Please excuse the changing use of “I” and “We” — after 14 years, we’ve lost our identities 🙂
–
I will go back to the original numbering, to avoid the confusion introduced by Chad’s last reply.
1-Campaigning to eliminate gay people’s rights.
2-Telling kids that it is evil to be gay.
3-Trying to invalidate a gay person’s marriage.
4-Putting someone in jail in Texas and then calling them an activist judge because they disagreed with me.
5-Sending groups into schools to “promote” the idea of being ex-gay.
6-Lobbying governmental agencies to limit or eliminate public access to information about [homosexuality].
7-Rallying against anti-bullying legislation.
Oh, bugger. Space horrors, and it looked so nice in the preview…
Marcus,
“But the person who struggles with homosexuality SHOULD have all available resources to him to accept or change him or herself according to their OWN personal truth.”
Here at exgaywatch we agree, that “strugglers” should have all resources available. We do not seek to shut down anyone.
What we do demand – and coincidentally what God demands – is that those providing the resourses do so honestly. No one can have their OWN personal truth, if it is based on the ex-gay ministries’ deceipt, lies, distortions, and spin.
Oh…Chaaaaad!
How come you didn’t come out swinging at ME?!
I tried to tell you….he who speaks with two mouths…will be punched in both of them.
Just a little sage to put in your soup.
You feel me?
“This exchange has left us with the clear impression that you are manipulative and dishonest, and that the claimed message of your ministry is in fact a gross fraud. Bluntly, that you are a Trojan horse.”
I’m sorry you feel this way. I have addressed your points truthfully and to the best of my knowledge, and even apologized where I was wrong. I guess this is the best we can do.
The statement you quoted from the video was in fact a mention of my religious views on homosexuality, but that speech was not given in a public high school. “I do NOT share my personal religious views about homosexuality in public schools.” The article in CT was not about opposing LGBT folks politically, the article was about how to show love despite what your political beliefs are about same-sex marriage, even though I did mention at the end that many who read my article would be voting on the issue. You could call that political activity but I don’t see it that way.
If I denied that I give talks in public schools then I will apologize for that. I think I probably mis-communicated there, it was lumped in with a bunch of other things I disagreed with and I forgot to exclude that one point. (Speaking in schools is 50% of what Inqueery does!)
As far as your question about LGBT anti-bullying programs, Inqueery does not take a position one way or the other. We are not a political organization, I said this in my last post.
I understand that you feel I am being dishonest, and I am truly sorry. I don’t know what else to say. The only reason I posted to begin with is that I wanted to point out that I was being lumped in with organizations who were doing things that my ministry does not do. That is why I used the term “my ministry” when I responded. It was not to try and make a distinction between myself and my ministry. You misunderstood that, maybe I should have been more clear.
I probably won’t post again because I don’t feel that this is getting us anywhere. If you’re ever in the mid-west Grantdale send me an e-mail and I’d love to take you out for a cup of coffee and help you see where I’m coming from. I also would love to hear more about your life so that I can understand where you are coming from. We are coming at each other from two entirely different perspectives here and I think that we both have a lot to learn…
Chad
Timothy,
The ex-gay ministries and the like will always be against the gay man and woman, religious or not, christian or not. That’s their business. You are right to ask them to consider other more worthwhile causes but you know they won’t. They operate because the bible tells them to because the bible says that all homosexuality is wrong and it will cause those that practice it (in any form) to go to hell.
Thus, the ex-gay ministries (which is why they are called Ministries) act according to this God-ordained fear to “save” gays from themselves and the lifestyle that the “devil” has them ensnared to.
I completely understand and support your wishes that these organizations and those like them abstain and desist from prejudices and injustices that are harmful to gays and lesbians (and their supporting org’s like Focus on the Family etc al.). And I think my point was taken that the resources be made available to those who seek it.
I think what Chad is trying to do, in having a dialogue here is genunine and honest, but he’s fighting a losing battle to convince anyone here that his cause is “right.” You say that there is nothing to cure, and for you, that’s true. And for most gay people, that is true as well. When I say the struggle is personal, it’s personal for the guy who does want to change FOR WHATEVER REASON(S) that’s between him and himself, his soul and most likely God.
What is wrong for Chad to say or anyone else in the movement to state is that IF you do this and IF you do that- you will become str8- is an outright lie. Especially if you put Jesus Christ in that sentence with a personal guarantee. We all know that the so-called success rate is less than 10%. When I was with my ex-gay group, only 2 guys got married to women after years of support out of 40 guys that attempted. And of course, “success” is subjective to all.
My question to you Tim is do you think you’re response to people like Chad is the right one for gay men? Is it true that Chad is a liar? Is it true that no gay man can or should change his sexual orientation, attractions or identity? Is this whole cause a waste of time?
I think you make good points but you come across angry or defensive and I’d like to respond with the same info or viewpoint but with a little more understanding and compassion in my voice. Maybe that’s how I read it and I am wrong in my perception. I say this not to cut you down but in hopes that we can dialogue about these issues in a constructive way. I myself would like to be more a voice for gays as you are but honestly, feel ill-equipped to do so at this point. Your input would be welcome 🙂
My email is voltagetower@yahoo.com or respond here if you like.
Take care dude,
Marcus
Benjamin Clark,
I didn’t your email anywhere on this site but would like to correspond with you to talk about the spiritual revelations you have been given regarding gays in the future and what God has planned for them. Would you email me?
Thanks,
Marcus
voltagetower@yahoo.com
Marcus,
Sorry if I come across as angry or defensive. I’m not particularly angry, especially at Chad. I am frustrated with him because I don’t think he’s a bad guy, I think he just is having a hard time being completely honest. It seems like he somehow feels that he has to do a PR spin for his ministry.
To address your questions:
“My question to you Tim is do you think you’re response to people like Chad is the right one for gay men?”
I don’t know. I’m trying to engage Chad, though I may not be doing the best job. I wan’t him to realize that he’s absolutely entitled to his opinion, religious beliefs, etc. I hope I conveyed to him that I recognize that he’s not on par with Dobson or Sheldon.
It’s just hard to have dialog with someone who doesn’t use the same language. When I say “truth”, I mean it in the old fashioned sense of what is actual observable fact. When the ex-gay movement (and this often includes Chad) says “truth” they mean what their faith believes was divinely revealed in Scripture. That’s not an easy thing to reconcile.
“Is it true that Chad is a liar?”
Perhaps a better way of describing Chad is as a bearer of false witness. The words he says may be technically correct if parsed, but the meaning he is giving is not the truth.
It’s like when Clinton said “I did not have sex with that woman”. Technically his definition of sex didn’t include a blow-job. However, what he said was intentionally phrased to deceive the listener. Chad does the same, unfortunately.
Re-read the posts above and you’ll see what I mean. Grantdale did a very good job of illustrating that.
“Is it true that no gay man can or should change his sexual orientation, attractions or identity?”
I’ve no idea if anyone can. The research is essentially non-existant. That which does exist (e.g. Spitzer) was so poorly constructed and enacted that it does not answer that question.
As to whether one should, that’s very subjective.
If reorientation could legitimately be proven to be effective (and, no, it has not) and not harmful, I think it would be appropriate to offer it with all facts presented up front. If someone wanted to put the effort in, knowing the risks and the odds of success, that would be up to them.
Do I personally think someone “should”? My religious beliefs do not require it and, in fact, I personally think it is an affront to God.
But if one’s religious convictions run otherwise, I don’t think they “shouldn’t” as long as there is adequate awareness of the risks and likelihood of success.
“Is this whole cause a waste of time?”
That depends on whether it works. And on whether the benefits outweigh the risks.
I suspect that attempts to reorient are, for the most part, a waste of time. I think time would be more fruitfully spent on self-control or chastity, if you can’t reconcile your religion to your orientation.
But, as I’ve stated, we don’t know.
And neither does Exodus/Chad/Warren or anyone else claiming to.
Hi Timothy,
Thanks for responding. Before I comment more, I was just curious, what is your personal interest to this issue of ex-gays?
Thanks,
Marcus
Marcus,
I’m a Christian. And I’m sickened by those who profess to speak for Christians.
They’ve given up on seeking God and instead seek to create/maintain a government in which they are treated preferentially and gay people are punished. As is demonstrated again and again, what they most object to is for a “homosexual lifestyle” to be treated the same as THEIR lifestyle.
If there’s anything that we can know about Christ is that he was adamantly opposed to treating yourself better than your neighbor. This is a constant theme throughout the Gospels, but that doesn’t seem to matter to James Dobson, etc.
Further, knowing that purely religious objection to gay people is not effective on non-believers, they seek to deceive, twist and spin the truth, and downright lie.
I grew up in a conservative Christian family and heard many of the bizarre claims. My father, a Pentecostal pastor, did not mean to lie. He, for the most part, believed what other “good Christians” told him and repeated it as fact.
I simply seek to make truth be known. You’ll notice that most of my postings (and, in fact, most of everyone else’s as well) focus on shedding light on lies and challenging them with the truth (I mean “truth” as in “fact”, not “TRUTH” as in “statement of faith”).
And that’s my personal interest. What’s yours?
Okay now see,
I haven’t always been received perfectly well here. Mike Airhart spanked me several times.
And I see Chad didn’t say anything to me at all about my last two posts.
He’s good hearted, perhaps.
Stout hearted…well, I tried to warn him about that.
Regan
We wouldn’t spank you if we didn’t love you
Timothy,
You speak to the majority of Christians and you’ll find that Dobson is revered by fundamentalists and worshipped by Christian mothers everywhere. It truly is unfortunate for it seems that he has no compassion and certainly no understanding of gays and lesbians, Christian or not.
I used to be a Christian but now can hold no allegiance to any one way of Faith to the exclusion of everyone else. Christianity seeks to save the lost and Jesus is the Savior and the bottom line to the religion is this: Believe in Christ or perish. I just don’t hold that view anymore, irregardless of what else he said or didn’t say in the bible about homosexuality.
In my relationship with God today, I practice the only thing that I learned from Jesus which was this: EVERYONE was welcome at His Table. So shall I. And from where I came, I shall return. That is my spirituality in a nutshell.
My interest in this is that I know the struggle personally and I know what it feels like to want to change and what it feels like when you’ve failed to change. And how I felt between God and me when this became evident. I support the ex-gay who wants to change because I’ve been there in the wanting, the hoping, the praying and the believing that Jesus will do something to change them. I support the gay man, when through years of trying, fails at this goal and finds the “Gay lifestyle” empty, lonely and frustrating and ultimately seems to give up on God completely.
And brother, I could always use help in communicating friendship and love to all people.
God bless you dude,
Marcus
Timothy and Marcus,
I am a non-christian, atheist in fact. That does not mean I that I do not understand and respect those who hold religious beliefs such as yourselves. I come at this issue from a slightly different angle. Since I do not hold spiritual beliefs and do not believe in God or Jesus Christ, I reject faith-based initiatives (in the words of GWB) that claim to cure something about a person that: is not an issue that requires curing and is uncurable through conventional therapies and medicines. I find the whole concept of ex-gay ludicrous and offensive as an atheist. The constant spinning and dishonesty perpetuated by fundamentalist christians and ex-gays is shocking and unbelievable to me. Stephen Bennett just expressed grave concern about the presence of gay families on HGTV. There is a simple answer for that, it is called a remote control. That is my biggest issue with those individuals is that they spend what appears to be most of their free time, commenting about the lives of others. It is simply none of their business.
As for the desire or need to change to heterosexual, I think this is all based on fear and negative conditioning. The majority of gays that I know well, have similiar backgrounds: knowing/awareness of their attraction to and fascination of the same sex at an early age and indifference but respect for, the opposite sex. I’m not going to begin to say that is the case with all of us, but it certainly applies to a majority of us. That concept in itself negates the need to change, because it is unchangeable. Those who claim to have changed are being dishonest, in my opinion, but, that is only my opinion. The other Tim.
The other Tim,
Unchangeable sure seems to be true. I also always find it incredible when guys claim to have changed their sexuality when they haven’t even kissed a boy. I’m glad you commented.
Marcus
We can add that we’re grateful for having Timothy around to explain in the way he does.”False witness” is not a term we’d ever use, for example, and we’re too used to being publically secular by default (regardless of our own religious beliefs or whatever). Despite being well aware of the way people use “Truth” vs “truth”, it’s not a debate to us. You have a religious belief, or you don’t — and neither require “the old fashioned sense of what is actual observable fact.”Not to harp on about it, but Truth vs truth nonsense has nothing to do with the fact (observable, even) that Chad specifically and deliberately claimed that “Sending groups into schools to promote the idea of being ex-gay” was something his ministry didn’t do. We knew immediately that this claim was outrageously false — and showed it to be false.What followed is the more interesting, and goes to the heart of Timothy’s observations about false witness. This is, if we understand Timothy correctly, not just a requirement to be honest but a demand that you also openly confess and deal with the times when you are caught. No spin. No ignoring it. No pretending it didn’t occur or that it’s the other persons fault in some way (such as, “you misunderstood” or “perhaps I wasn’t clear enough”).Regardless of the plain fact that Chad lied (our secular word, sorry) about his ministry going into schools, we didn’t get an immediate withdrawal. Even at the end we have Chad scrabbling around with
What do you mean by “if, then”??? You did do it! That’s as plain as the nose on your face. And then the avoidance with “even if I did, it was a miscommunication” caused by a simple bit of confusion.No. It. Was. Not.The exchange did get us thinking. Yeah, dangerous. I have an older paper floating around somewhere that covers this concept of “false witness” from the perspective of workplace management. Roughly, employees (taking clues from their workplace environment) will internalize or externalize “blame” for all the cock-ups that naturally occur. Workplaces run better if these errors can be honestly dealt with, but managers need to interpret the information they receive through an understanding of whether an employee is internalizing or externalizing the cause of the mistake. An employee that says “The mistake occured because I don’t have enough training” could be either blaming themself (as inadequate) or their boss (for not doing their job and providing adequate training). Neither, or both, may be the real reason.And then we thought… we’ve read an awful lot of exgay testimony that shows a clear flip from internalizing to externalizing the cause of their sexuality. Perhaps this is what really changes with those who incorporate an exgay identity. Not their sexuality, but how they deal with the outside.Now, brief lesson over, lay that framework over Chad at 19 and Chad today with reference to the exchanges in this post. From beating himself up, to looking for any blame by an outsider.I think we’ve exhausted the topic, for now 🙂
I WAS JUST UP BROWSING WHEN I CAME ACROSS THESE BLOG ENTRIES! I THINK ITS UP TO EACH PERSON AS CHILDREN OF THE LORD TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN TRUTHS! I AM ALSO DEALING WITH HOMESEXUALITY IN MY LIFE! WE ALL HAVE THORNS! I BELIEVE ITS ALL ABOUT PRAYER AND FAITH! I NEVER LOOKED AT WOMEN GROWNING UP, PERIOD!
AS I GOT OLDER, AND BEGIN TO SEEK A HIGHER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT I WAS GOING THRU BECAUSE NO ONE COULD UNDERSTAND! SO I TURNED TO THE LORD, AND SOUGHT, AND I AM STILL SEEKING HIS KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH. READ TO SHOW THIN OWNSELF APPROVED! KNOCK AND IT SHALL BE OPEN UNTO YOU!
I PRAYED AND IM STILL PRAYING TO FIND HIS TRUTH! I ASKED FOR A BEGINNING WITH A WOMAN, AND IT WAS ADDED UNTO ME, ALTHOUGH IT WAS A SIMPLE KISS! IT HAPPEND AND I HAD TO START SOMEWHERE! IM BEGINNING TO MEET MORE WOMEN, AND SEE WHAT INNER BEAUTIES THEY HAVE! AND NO, I DONT LOOK, OR TRY TO TALK WITH EVERY FEMALE I SEE! IF I SEE AND OPPORTUNITY I PRESENT MYSELF AS SUCH.
IM DATING A BEAUTIFUL YOUNG LADY AND WE HAVE BEEN DATING FOR ALMOST OVER A YEAR AND 8 MONTHS NOW! YES, SHE KNOWS ABOUT MY SEXUAL HISTORY AND PAST! NO WE HAVENT HAD SEX, BUT WE HAVE FOOLED AROUND…FOR THOSE THAT INSIST ON KNOWING!
ITS NOT ABOUT THE SEX, ITS ABOUT OUR SPIRITUAL COMPANIONSHIP AND VIEWS OF OURSELVES TOGETHER!
ALL IM SAYING IS THAT IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT YOURSELF, SEEK THE TRUTH IN WHO CHRIST JESUS WANTS YOU TO BE! I USE TO SAY ALL THE TIME IMMA BE GAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE, THATS WHAT I THOUGHT THATS WHAT I BELIEVED!
YOUR MIND IS THE BATTLEGROUND! YOU NEED TO MAKE A DECISION WITHIN YOURSELF, A TRUE SINCER ONE! BUT HOW CAN YOU MAKE A TRUE DECISION IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS? HOW CAN YOU PASS THE TEST SET BEFORE YOU, IF YOU HAVE NOT STUDIED AND USED ALL THE MATERIALS TO PASS THE TEST? BUT IM JUST STOPPING BY TO TELL YOU ALL THAT THE TEST CAN BE PASSED! TALK, LISTEN, AND ASK THE TEACHER! SURELY ITS JUST A TEST OF YOUR FAITH! BUT THE TRUTH AND ANSWER DOSENT LAY IN THE TEST, ITS LAYS IN THE REASON YOU HAVE THIS TEST, AND HOW DECIDED TO PASS IT! LOL…BE BLESSED, BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE! AND BE A BLESSIN WHEN YOU WRITE IN THESE BLOGS! BE WATCHFUL OF OTHERS, WRITE IN LOVE!
YOUR BROTHER,
NATHAN
Reading posts such as yours Nathan is the main reason I began to research and speak out against the ex-gay movement. Your post is obviously heart-felt but it is quite indicative that fundamentalist religion has embraced cult-like behaviours and has attached itself to the gay rights movement to launch an attack against a minority group of people THEY find objectionable. I find their intrusion most unwelcome and extremely offensive as a non-believer.
Your first statement suggesting that your innate PHYSIOLOGICAL AND BIOLOGICAL traits of being attracted sexually to the same gender is a “thorn”. This notion I would suspect has come from several sessions of listening to someone preach that you are somehow unworthy and are a lessor human being. There is no human being on this planet who has the right to drive this into your skull and expect that you will believe it. As an atheist, I view this as a hidious brainwashing technique and really question the legalities of it.
I too recognize the inner beauties of a woman as do many gay men. That does not infer that one must force oneself to develop sexual attraction. This is akin to holding one’s breath under water and hoping that one does not drown.
Many gay people who have gotten past the stench of religious brainwashing and recognized their true humanity, whether they have faith or not, have found spiritual and secular companionship with their true sole mates of the same gender. I found mine 13 years ago.
It is highly presumptious of religious organizations and individuals to assume that Jesus Christ expects you to lie and deny who you truly are. This is a fallacy that must be countered. It is ridiculous to assume that a man who may or may not have existed expects you to do this. It is those who developed organized religion who thrust this expectation upon you, not Jesus. No body on this earth can claim to speak for Jesus or God, that is against religion is it not? But many do this continuously and even expect non-believers to accept this garbage.
You speak about accepting truth. Millions of gay human being have accepted the truth about themselves and refuse to accept shame or stigmatization. I suggest to you and other supposed ex-gays also examine what truth really means and what caused them to reject their true selves and live a life of lies and deceit (especially against themselves).
First things first im not an ex-gay! I use to be a same gender loving man! Since coujachocolier means SELF-DETERMINATION, its very important for me to tell you who i was so you will know I am, and wont think u know who i am!
Being attracted to the same gender is a THORNE(which THORNE is a simple word, a noun that names a person, place, or thing) when your tring to accomplish something with the OPPOSITE SEX! Its also a THORN to make kool aid if you dont have any sugar. LOL. Feel free to use whatever word works for you! When did nouns become politically correct to use!
LOL @ YOU!” forcing ones self to develop sexual attraction! LOL. No ones forced me to do anything, It was simply natural affection from a beautiful, caring, honest person that was born a woman that geared the sexaul attraction. Further more, your mind can make strong Imaginations! Just like you imagine yourself in bed with your man, i imagine mine in bed with my woman…LOL..Now you forced me to say that! LOL
So basically, you chose your mate! It was your choice, free will. And he is a guy! Am i not allowed to have a change of heart, and choose a woman? To each is his own! Thats what you believe, thats your life your living. You are completly wrong about anyone tellin me or showing me anything about Jesus! He speaks to me personally and shows me things, we have a beautiful relationship!
Whatever I have read in the Bible, i have read it for myself and made discernment. Be thats as it may! Im in love with this yung lady! We are about to be engaged! You have made your choice on who/what you want in life! Im simply making mine. I choose to be Christian, I choose to live as one, I choose A Female as a soulmate, I choose to have kids, i choose to have a family! i choose my CHOICE,i choose MY FREE WILL! NOW, your happy and Im happy! HORRAY!
Seems that I struck a thorn with you Nathan. Good. With all do respect, your response is pretty much what I expected to get. You certainly are free to do whatever you want, but the point I was making was that the fundamentalist Christian movement has attached itself to the gay rights issue as a foe and I take great offence to that. I will continue to oppose them until they butt out and mind their own affairs. Take a look around the US and you will note the increasing influence these people have on public policy and are doing everything to ensure gays remain second class citizens.
I’m not surprised that I got a smug, “LOL” filled response from you. That unfortunately has become the type of defence mechanisms used by fundamentalist christians who cannot accept any kind of criticism of their beliefs. Anyway, I don’t buy a word you said, but have a nice life anyway. And do your wife a big favour and tell her the truth when you “slip up” and don’t lie to her as many married closet cases do to their wives and families.
Nathan,
Rather than challenge your assertions or your beliefs, I want simply to repeat back to you one thing you quoted. You said “READ TO SHOW THIN OWNSELF APPROVED!” The actual scriptural reference is:
2 Timothy 2:15 – 15 – Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nathan, I don’t think you understand this scripture. This is not a directive to blindly read scripture – remember, the New Testament had not been compiled when this was written. The word here actually means more along the line of “strive” or “attempt”.
What the author is instructing here is that the listener must be careful in what they believe. He’s telling you to avoid simply believing the religious teaching of those around you but to actually seek or strive for truth. This is evident a few scriptures later when he warns about the teachings of Hymenaeus and Philetus, Christian leaders who taught a doctrine with which the writer disagreed.
For example, you would be greatly at fault if you were to accept the teaching of a church (any church) on any subject, especially homosexuality, without searching for the actual facts. To do so is to give the security of your soul over to teachers who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, may be teaching a doctrine contrary to God’s wisdom.
I recommend a principled and structured study. Start with John Boswell’s books but also include conservative theology. Avoid the sensationalists (for example anything supported by Exodus) and anyone who does nothing more that spout scripture in English without any attempt to understand the original language or context. I think you will be very surprised at what you learn.
It is not, I emphasize NOT, simply enough to read the Bible (unless of course you read Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic and are a scholar in ancient languages and culture – somehow I doubt this). Nor is it adequate to simply accept whatever your church’s leaders tell you or give you to read. Without studying opposing viewpoints or research, the Spirit cannot lead you from a Hymenaeus doctine (should you be in one).
Please do this before you marry some woman and greatly affect her life. After all, you may “choose” that your soulmate will be a female but you may well find that such decisions are neither in your hands nor according to the will of God.
You may well end up where you are now, but at least then you can say you “studied”.
God’s grace be with you
(to the non-Christians among us, sorry for the tangent)
WE ARE ALL ON DIFFERNT JOURNEYS! WE AL HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS! THE THE ATHEIST: I NOT DEFENSIVE, IM JUST SIMPLE SPEAKIN WHAT MY FAITH TELLS ME! IF I WERE TO MEET YOU IN PERSON, AND WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION WE COULD DEBATE AND LAUGH ABOUT IT AS IM DOING NOW. I CARE ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL, AND WHAT U THINK, AND APPRECIATE YOUR OUTLOOK. I DONT MIND IF YOUR WITH A MAN! IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT AND YOU HAPPY IM HAPPY WITH YOU. MY POINT WAS NEVER TO DISECT YOU FOR YOUR BELIEF!
FOR THE OTHER GUY: I GUESS I SHOULD SAY IM SORRY FOR ME NOT SPEAKIN THE SCRIPTURE WORD FOR WORD, BUT I WANT BECAUSE NO ONE IS PERFECT! AND LIKE THE YOUNG LADY KNOWS ABOUT MY SEXUAL HISTORY AND IM COMPLETELY OPEN AND HONEST, I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE FROM HER. THATS WHY WE HAVE A BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP, SHE REPECTS ME FOR THAT! SHE DOES NOT CRITICIZE ME! ALTHOUGH I HAVE SPOKEN WHAT I BELIEVE, BECAUSE I HAVE A VOICE JUST LIKE MANY OF YOU, ALL OF OUR VOICES ARE DIFFERNT! STILL I DO NOT CRITICIZE ANY OF YOU, NOR AM I TRING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE WORLD THROUGH MY EYES! ” THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN” MAY YOUR OWN BELIEFS SAVE YOU, AS MINE SUREY IS SAVING ME! MAY GOD BE WITH US ALL!
HI: I AM GLAD TO BE OUT OF HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES. ALTHOUGH I AM INFECTED WITH HIV NOW, I WILL ENJOY THE REST OF MY LIFE LOVING JESUS, AND PRAYING FOR MY HEALING.
Please don’t SHOUT.